www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Farenheit 9/11

Wizdom,

Many of the issues you mentioned happened over the past 60 years (3 generations). The morality / immorality of these historical events must be judged within the complex geopolitical events of their day, and then compared to those of other nations which were attempting to spread tyranny and communism. When you do this it suddenly becomes difficult to judge the events.

Although I have not seen the statistics, I doubt that the abortion situation (per capita) is any better in Canada as compared to the USA. Therefore, they are both equally bad.

I'm not sure how the above issues relate to the contemporary USA problem of the exponential proliferation of guns and the associated problems - which is the issue we are discussing.

This quote did catch my eye (contemporary issue) and I was wondering why you thought it was immoral for Gilead Biosciences to test Viread in Africa, and Cambodia. I myself have participated in both FDA and scholarly (university teaching hospitals) anti-viral clinical trials which have taken place in third world nations (including Africa) and can assure you these activities were of the highest moral calliber. Further, it is very often the only medical treatment these poor people get. I'm not sure why you think the activities of the biopharmaceutical company are immoral .

Hritzko

Hritzko,Morality is Absolute,(Gods Law)not a judgement call to be debated.It is or it is'nt.Circumstances change nothing!

On your,"they are both equally bad.Indeed they are,However you stated:"the Brits set up a good Gov.in canada that guaranteed the safety of its SUBJECTS,thereby nulifying the need for said SUBJECTS to bear arms.That there is no longer a need in U.S.to be armed since OUR Gov. can protect us!Allow me to say this about that.Your GOOD BRITS stood back and done nothing when her Irish SUBJECTS starved to death,and again done nothing when influenza struck her Irish SUBJECTS!You hang your hat in Boston and do'nt know about the taxing problem the good Brits were there?no Hritzko,we American CITIZENS are more than a little skeptical about what any Gov. can or will do for us,thats why OUR National motto is IN GOD WE TRUST,and not in man or gov.we trust.And in view of the fact that hand gernades are selling for 50cents a piece in Afghanistan,and there is an estimated 3,500 weapons for each man,woman,and child in Yemen,WE THE PEOPLE of the UNITED STATES will keep our stupid LAW and our stupid guns!

On testing Viread.Gilead had no need for the F.D.A. approal to do anything outside of the U.S.,but by recieving it Gilead can now pass the HUMAN EXPERIMENT cost back on the American taxpayer in the name of research.If you have not recognized Immoral yet,think about this.Gilead is going to round up destitute prostitutes and give half VIREAD,and half a PLACEBO,then tell them to go forth and sin some more so we can see how effective this stuff is!The only health care they will recieve is to monitor the results!IMMORAL YET?

In Christ,Wizdom

Wizdom,

Again thank you for your pearls.

About the British....

At no time in any of my posts did I state that the British were free of immoral behaviour in their treatment of their colonies, including the United States of America, Ireland, and even the Canadas. The ill treatment and neglect of the Irish during the mid 19th century potato famine will haunt the British for centuries. BUT - I'm not sure how any of this past history affects the modern problems we are having with guns and their related violence in our cities and towns.

Question about the British and Influenza...

Can you please explain how the British were immoral in relation to the Influenza Pandemic which occured just after World War 1. From my understanding, millions of people died all over the world from this catastrophic viral pandemic, including in the United States. What did the British do which was more immoral than let's say the rest of Europe during this pandemic ?

Guns in America

My earlier posts make explicit reference to the fact that there was a real need (political threat and security) for the citizens to arm themselves in the earlier days of the Republic of the United States of America. However, with the advent of biological, nuclear, 'dirty bombs', and other modern weapons, traditional arms (ie: handguns and machine guns) can no longer be considered serious tools to protect the liberty and security of the peoples from a potential dictator. They can only be used for criminal activities and result in many people being killed and / or injured. Again, the USA has a fatality / injury rate which is 15 times higher than Canada, yet I do not think that Canadians feel any less threatened by a dictator.

It's immoral not to think about removing traditional firearms from our streets. Changing the constitution should be on everyones mind.

Gilead Bioscience

You seem to be confused about what a clinical trial is and how it is conducted (etc...) so I will make a few quick remarks about this company and it's activities:

(1) Conducting FDA clinical trials in Africa reduces the cost of new drugs in the USA.

All new drugs must undergo very costly and complex FDA clinical trials in the United States before they are approved for the market. This cost will then be incorporated into the price of the drugs. Since the cost of doing an FDA clinical trial in Africa is significantly lower, the price of the drugs will be much lower when they are available for the USA market.

(2) Performing clinical trials in Africa reduce the time it takes to get new drugs approved for the USA market

The incidence of HIV and hepatitis (Gileads main antivirals) is much higher in Africa than it is in the USA. There are countries in Africa with rates estimated to be at over 40% whereas in the USA it is 1 or 2%. Since there is a much larger pool of potential patients in Africa, you can rapidly recruit a large number of patients, and get the drug tested in a much shorter period of time. This means that the drugs are available to Americans much faster than if they were tested in the United States.

Placebos

Placebos are used in all FDA clinical trials (including those conducted in the USA) to determine the psychosomatic effects of taking what is perceived to be a new drug by the patients. The patients who will be 'on therapy' and used as 'controls' are randomly selected after they have met the general inclusion criteria for the studies. The placebo element must be factored into any clinical outcome to determine the true effect of a drug. If trials produce overwhelming evidence of a true clinical benefit early into their protocols, they are terminated and the 'placebo' subjects are immediately placed on the therapy. There is nothing immoral about this type of science. Everyone is treated equally and there must be both therapy (anti-viral) and control (placebo) groups to determine the effects of the drugs.

(3) patient selection

At no time would the people conducting the tests select infected prostitutes and then tell them "to go and sin". In fact, all FDA clinical anti-viral trials underscore the need for the patients to abstain from sexual activities if they are infected and on therapy. To be infected with other pathogens, or even a second subtype (clade) of the virus can result in clinical findings which do not provide optimum results. It would be counterproductive for the pharmaceutical companies to tell their test subjects to go and have sex (sin) and ruin the clinical trials because they are infecting themselves with other pathogens.

Conclusion:

Ethical pharmaceutical companies such as Gilead which conduct FDA clinical trials in Africa (or in other areas of the third world) help to reduce the cost of drugs for Americans, and they help bring them faster to the market thereby saving more lives. The risk factor for the African patients is the same as that which would be experienced by American subjects.

You are correct in stating that African subjects are not paid for the studies, but neither are Americans. The USA recruiting physicians receive 'honorariums', but those doctors in Africa significantly less (this is the real savings to the drug companies).

If the clinical study is successful, the drug gets FDA approval, and the patients receive the costly drug free of charge for the rest of their lives. Something they could never afford on their own

Performing clinical trials in Africa is a win-win situation. It helps people in Africa and the USA.

Hritzko

Hritzko,I was speaking to your comparison of british,Canadien,and American Gov.,you posted,07-13,at12:27PM.My only point is If you put your TRUST in any Gov.to protect you ,take care of you,you are a fool!
In your GUNS IN AMERICA,you wrote,with the advent of biological,nuclear,dirty bombs,and other modern weapons,traditional arms can no longer be considered serious tools to protect the liberty and security of the peoples from a potential dictator.I say,one hand gun would have been ample against those box cutter weilding dictators during the 9-11 attack.Look,the guns are staying,but if you get inside information that this or any Gov. intends to Dis-arm the populous,RUN,RUN QUICKLY,do'nt look back.It would be much safer to hang out in Baghdad,than say Boston!

On your Gilead Bioscience:Spoken like a true Marketing Director!Now that YOU have made me aware that
(1)CONDUCTING FDA CLINICAL TRIALS IN AFRICA WILL REDUCE THE COST OF NEW DRUGS IN THE USA.

(2)PERFORMING CLINICAL TRIALS IN AFRICA REDUCE THE TIME IT TAKES TO GET NEW DRUGS APPROVED FOR THE USA MARKET.I think the morality is becomeing clearer.FASTER,CHEAPER,and more PROFITABLE if we gamble with the lives of AFRICANS!Oh yes.

(3)PATIENT SELECTION

aT NO TIME WOULD THE PEOPLE CONDUCTING THE TESTS SELECT INFECTED PROSTITUTES AND THEN TELL THEM TO GO SIN.In fact,all FDA clinical ANTI-VIRAL trials underscore the need for the patients to abstain if they are infected.Hritzko,an ANTI-VIRAL(VIREAD)is an inoculate,vaccine,to BLOCK HIV!They can not be infected prior to inoculation,and it must be buisness as usual afterwards.Then we will find out how the vaccine performs in comparison with the PLACEBO, or group that got nothing.But the morality in this practice is evident?

Questions:Is it just coincidental the ETHICAL PHARMACEUTICAL CO.GILEAD is based in the SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA?

And can you really tell me you believe in your heart this is RIGHT?

In Christ,Wizdom

Wizdom,

I would suggest that you RUN, RUN, RUN QUICKLY to see how the "Fools" in Toronto (with a population of almost 5 million people) do not live in fear. The government there regulates the guns (ie: only sold to 'sane' hunters, and even then, in a very restricted fashion).

In the poorest districsts of the city, young people can go to school without fear of being shot. People can go about their business without fearing gang violence. Accidental deaths, particularly of children, are almost unheard of. Bank robberies and other crimes using guns are a fraction of those in the USA. RUN, RUN, RUN QUICKLY to see how civilized people live without guns or fear of their government usurping power. You should do all possible to help your fellow citizens have the right to life without fear of being shot.

Gilead Biosciences

You did not read my last post. The pharmceutical companies must prove to the FDA that there is no unreasonable risk, and a clear therapeutic benefit to the new drugs. If this can't be proved to the FDA, the trials can't proceed. The same rules apply if the FDA clinical trial is conducted in the United States or Africa - Again read my last post.

You may have noticed the bus load of people travelling to Canada to buy drugs. The problem is that they have become to expensive in the United States. It cost the pharmaceutical companies between $600 and $900 million to produce a single drug, and there are a lot of losses associated with drugs never making it to the market.

There are increasing numbers of Americans who can't afford drugs anymore. Therefore the pharmaceutical companies must find new ways to cut the cost of drugs to ensure that they remain affordable to the masses. Contrary to what you state and much of the media hype, profits do not rise based on the research and development cost savings for a single drug. The companies are simply trying to keep the cost of the drugs affordable for most Americans. If they fail to do this, the products will not sell and the companies will go bankrupt. It's as simple as that.

VACCINE vs Anti-Viral therapeutics

You seem to be confused about several issues, so again I will take the time to explain them to you:

(1) Gilead produces anti-viral therapeutics (and one HIV associated anti-fungal in development). They do not produce any vaccines. Further, vaccines are NOT anti-viral therapeutics - they are vaccines. I have appended the drugs they are currently developing and you will notice there ARE NO VACCINES.

Gilead Biosciences - Anti-viral product research pipeline [www.gilead.com]

"Coincidental" I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that San Francisco has a higher per capita homosexual population than other North American cities (and therefore probably a higher AIDS / HIV incidence), the answer is NO !

The University of California at Berkley has always been an academic leader in the areas of biochemistry / medicine. This and other local universities have produced many young scientists who specialized in this field and wished to remain in the area after they graduated from school. For many years, the San Francisco / Bay area (& Silicon Valley) have produced some of the brightest minds in these fields, and the corporations have recruited locally.

Gilead Biosciences is located in the South San Francisco / Foster City area. There are hundreds of small and medium sized biotechnology and pharmaceutical companies located in the San Francisco Bay and Silicon Valley areas. They are involved in thousands of different new therapeutics, diagnostics, vaccines, and other health related products. Oncology (cancer) is now by far the leading area of research for most of these companies. HIV / AIDS is probably about number 8, 9 or even 10 on the list.

There are several companies (but not Gilead) which are producing Vaccines for HIV. I believe "in my heart" and in my mind that this is the only solution to stop the spread of this modern plague. We now know that in Africa, homosexuality has little if anything do do with the spread of the disease.

Ukraine (including Zakarpattia / Carpatho-Rus) have some of the highest rates of HIV in Europe.
The recently posted website of the Ukrainian Catholic Church (USA Archeparchy of Philadelphia) has a news story about the pediatric HIV clinic they are sponsoring.

Ukrainian Catholic Pediatric AIDS Laboratory @ Lviv, Ukraine [ukrarcheparchy.us]

They can stop the spread of HIV from the infected mothers to their neonates, but not the spread of the virus from the mother's milk to the baby. A vaccines for the child would ensure that one less citizen of Ukraine contracted the disease.

You should pray that the vaccine trials find some level of success so that millions of lives can be saved around the world.

Also, may I suggest that you start having some faith in your fellow Americans and the government they elect. You will quickly realize that guns no longer have a place in American cilized society.

Hritzko

Hritzko,I do'nt need to run to Toronto to see how those fools are liveing,those fools are your problem not mine.Besides I am to afraid to leave my house,what with all those un-civilized,gun toteing,criminal,American citizens out there.
I can see that you must be liveing LARGE here,since your 15x more likely to get shot yet willing to face that danger.What would it take to make you go back home,20x,30x,a flesh wound?
A word to the wize,foreigners that spew offensive rhetoric probably boost the chances of being shot considerably.Try to tone it down around places like the VFW,American Legion Hall,Biker haunts,Red Neck Honky Tonks,and the entire state of West Virginia,and you just might survive.

You did not read my post.
Yes I did and my response remains the same.The FDA has no AUTHORITY outside of the U.S.,any ass-urances given by Multi Billion dollar drug co.that they are in compliance is worthless.And the exploitation of destitute prostitutes for HUMAN EXPERIMENTATION,or your sanitized version,clinicl testing is IMMORAL.
As for the bus loads of Amricans going to Canada for cheap drugs,Hritzko,those are wacked out ol hippies headen up for B.C.BUD!
And finally,No you may not suggest I start haveing FAITH in my fellow Americans and the government they elect.My Faith is in God,not my fellow(Un-civilized,gun toteting,15xmore likely to shoot you) Americans and a Government that supports abortion,whos Justices are trying to turn our Nation ATHEIST,a Congress that gives themselves 5 raises in 6 years,one for an additional 5 thou.,and only gave SS recipients 36 dollars over the same time frame and took back 19 of it for DRUGS!

In Christ,Wizdom

Wizdom,

I must admit, we were debating visiting some 'red neck honky tonks' at one of the local Legion halls in West Virginia last year, but for some strange reason we decided on the Vatican in Rome instead - awe shucks if I had only known.

My last words of advice - remember - 'paranoya will destraya'

Hritzko

Wizdom - fear not. I strongly support gun control legislation, but I am not and never have been in the habit of frequenting "the VFW,American Legion Hall,Biker haunts,Red Neck Honky Tonks,and the entire state of West Virginia". By some strange coincidence, I also do not attend lynchings, Ku Klux Klan rallies, parades of Aryan Nation, or similar celebrations of cultural heritage. A good friend of mine and I did once spend a few days driving the Blue Ridge - for the specific purpose of enabling my friend to visit the grave of a deceased friend of his, which somehow seems appropriate.
Incognitus

On the one hand, gun control would save hundreds if not thousands of lives. This is a fact.

On the other hand, bet the Kulaks wished they had rifles. Six million Jews would not have died if gun ownership was a Jewish tradition. Hitler and Stalin were major proponents of gun control.

Trust government? In New Jersey? Government here is about as honest as Nigeria or Belarus.

AIDS rates

.0005 Slovakia
.06 Poland
.04 Hungary
.43 Ukraine

Carpatho-Rus same as Ukraine?

Hritzko,I am aware that an individual of such pomposity woud never stoop to the level of the American bourgeoise.I was useing my superior satiric skills that my Jewish friends in Wheeling do so love me for.However it appears my Canadien friend in Boston is somewhat less understanding of?

You chose to visit the Vatican instead.

GOOD CHOICE,but tell me you did'nt pick up that good advice,PARANOYA WILL DESTROYA at the Vatican.
That really sounds like you have been reading rest room walls in some HONKY TONK.

Parting advice: A wize guy once said,"the person that angers you,controls you."

In Christ,Wizdom

Incognitus,please tell me your post is another one of your ABSURDO things.You see the Veterans of this Country as lynchman,klansmen,with an aryan ideology?Shame on you.

As for your question of whether or not driving the Blue Ridge for three days with your boyfriend is appropriate or not.Only you know for sure?But in either case,please keep it Incognito!

In Christ,Wizdom

That last post from "Wizdom" was the last straw for me. I am off of this Forum.

Kyrie eleison.

Dear Wizdom,

If I have read what you have said correctly in this thread, I have several concerns.

You have engaged in personal abuse, innuendo, and insinuation in your speech. I must protest! Some of your comments in response to hritzko and incognitus are inappropriate and uncalled for.

To my knowledge, training, or understanding as a Christian it has never been an expression of Christian love in speech to speak as you are doing. Some of your comments appear, for example your statement about Incognitus's "boy friend," go beyond appropriate speech for a Christian to post on a Christian forum.

These comments of yours and several posted by another poster in the Kyrie Eleison thread in reaction to Alice, have crossed into the kind of discussion which, if unchecked, will change the very nature of discourse on the Forum as a whole.

Some members have publicly stated that they no longer feel that they can freely participate without expectation of attack or disrespect of their approach or of their opinion.

Civility and love in speech even in disagreement have been hallmarks of the Byzantine Forum. Those elements are threatened by your behavior, in my opinion.

So, I am appealing to the forum moderator and/or the administrator to intervene.

With concern!

Steve

My thanks to Steve Inawe and others. I do not grasp why driving the Blue Ridge in company with a friend (of either gender) should seem even remotely redolent of the sort of misconduct that Wizdom seems to read into it. As for the American Legion and the VFW, it was Wizdom, not I, who chose to include them in a list with "Red Neck Honky Tonks" which leads directly to the sort of activity and organizations I then mentioned as highly avoidable by those of us who support gun control legislation.
By no means do all veterans endorse such organizations, take part in such activities, or oppose gun control legislation. I've never taken a survey, but I can speak for members of my own family who served in the US military and who are indignant and insulted at the notion that all veterans must endorse a mindless right-wing approach to every question in life. Still less do all veterans endorse the notion that it is proper to sling mud in all directions.
Gun control legislation - or the lack of it - is not an issue of immediate and direct urgency to the Greek-Catholics in the USA for the moment. It is surely an issue concerning which good men differ (I couldn't agree less with Charlton Heston and the NRA, but I yield to no one in my admiration for Heston's thespian achievements - most notably the film of the Ten Commandments, which I still enjoy after all these years). So I would second the suggestion that it's time for the Administrator and/or the Moderator to call a halt. Personal insults and the gratuitous imputation of serious immorality to those who disagree on a political question (gun control legislation) have no legitimate place on this forum.
Incognitus