www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why do you attend a BC parish?

Teen,

Maybe you didn't read my entire post where I clearly said that I even if I were to continue to have an Eastern Catholic option I may still yet end up in Orthodoxy? Did you miss that part?

Did you miss the part where I said that I am studying, researching and trying to figure out where I stand?

I am not being dishonest with myself in the least, intellectually or otherwise. In fact I believe that I am being just the opposite. I am staying where I am for the moment until I know what it is that I truly believe to be the correct course. How is that dishonest?

I am fully aware, young man, of the fact that the dogmatic decrees (those teachings essential to the faith) are indeed the same for both Roman Catholics and the Eastern Catholics who are in communion with the Roman See. Thus stems my quandry.

The more I wanted to learn about Eastern Spirituality the more I was pointed (by those here) to Orthodox sources of information. The more I was pointed to Orthodox sources the more confused I have become.

I realize that there are distinct doctrinal and dogmatic differences between the two bodies. At this time I am not certain whose claim to being the "One True Church" I believe to be most compelling.

Do not accuse me of intellectual (or any other type) dishonesty as I am doing everything I can to be honest with both myself and everyone else I know.

Again, you make assumptions. By now you should realize that assuming anything about anyone usually leads to error.

In Christ,

Carole

Carole,

Don't worry about Teen. I've seen his attitude in both the RCs and the Orthodox. I've enjoyed blistering both of them. I believe that both of their positions are defective in comparison with the Eastern Catholic position. If anyone knows the history of the Church prior to 1054 they realize that even with the occasional spats we were in communion with each other. Is there a reason to be proud of the fact that neither the Orthodox nor the RCs can get along with each other? I should think this should bring unbearable shame to both their camps. But no. Both take their pettiness out on the ECs.

Jews are asked why they seem to be the brunt of every evildoer that comes along. One of the answers I hear often goes something like this: "By our very existence we are a witness that evil can be challenged and defeated. This causes the evil ones to be outraged."

As long as we exist as Orthodox in communion with Rome we will be a thorn in the flesh to both. We will represent the truth that God intends us to be true to Him and one in Him.

Or as St. Paul might say:
I Corinthians 1 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

I have come to the point at which I don't really care what criticism the RCs or the Orthodox throw at us. What matters is what Christ thinks of us and what He wishes us to do.

CDL

When I moved to St. Louis in August of 2005, a Roman Catholic priest suggested that I attend Divine Liturgy occasionally at the St. Louis Byzantine Catholic Mission in order to broaden my spiritual outlook. I immediately fell in love with the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and have been attending Divine Liturgy at the Mission ever since.

Disilluionment is beginning to set in because the Byzantine Catholics seem to be stuck on the issue of ethnic background. That feeling is only reinforced by some of the postings on this topic, especially the occasional, outright hostility to the Holy Father.

I feel Roman Catholics are only accepted by Byzantine Catholics if they are willing to become Ruthenian. To modify a slogan from 100 years ago, - "Americans need not apply". This is totally contrary to the homily given by the late Archbishop and Metropolitan Judson in October on 1999, who said there is no Ruthenian diaspora in the United States. Apparently, many Byzantines have not gotten the message.

Accordingly, I am probably going to start attending Mass at Sacred Heart Roman Catholic Church.

I would never join the Orthodox, SSPX, or Protestant Churches because they are not in communion with Rome.

I may ask Sacred Heart's pastor if we could have Divine Liturgy said once a month, or better yet, once a week. He probably would be very receptive to the idea, just as there is one Latin Mass a week in many parishes. There are several bi-ritual priests at St. Louis University available for Divine Liturgy on a weekly basis.

JP

JP,

Could you clarify something. Do you think that Orthodoxy is only "an ethnic thing" or am I misunderstanding your point? As a protestant most of my life I knew almost nothing about Orthodoxy before I converted and nothing at all about "Ruthenia". Perhaps the mission in SL is simply an ethnic mission and not any deeper than that, but I assure you that my experience is such that a majority of people in our parish have little or no connection with Eastern Europe, Russia, or the Middle East and most of those who do love those connections but do not force them upon the rest of us.

CDL

First, I would like to apologize to Dan for being uncharitable with him in my first post in this thread. I did not intend to single you out, but did so, and therefore I apologize for making it seem like yours was the only position I didn't understand or that I particularly had it out for you.

And, for the record, Dan, you know that I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning the mess the average NO parish is in, from orthopraxy to orthodoxy. We will, and we are, reclaiming our patrimony, which is in no wise inferior to the patrimony of our Eastern brethren, but which is being stifled in our Church by those who hate our rightful patrimony.

I will consider the pot-shots you took at me as provoked by my sarcastic tone in my first post and so I hope there is no harm done on either side.

InCogNeat3's,

This is your respect for the Roman Catholic Church? That we do not faithfully serve Christ? I don't think your inane post merits a reply except to ask you to think about what exactly you are saying and very unfair it is! There are millions of people in the RCC who attempt to follow Christ....come on!

Carole,

Don't put words into my mouth! I never said you were intellectually dishonest, but said that I hope you consider Eastern Orthodoxy or else, it would seem to me, you would be dishonest. Since by your very admission in your last two posts that you ARE considering Orthodoxy, I fail to see how I called you what you claim I did, or assumed you were.

My last sentence written to you in the last post was addressed generally to all Eastern Catholics who haven't the courage you have to consider Eastern Orthodoxy, and yet still somehow deny Catholic teachings.

So congratulations and happy hunting! I hope you find what you're looking for, whether it's already where you are...or not.

Logos Teen

Logos Teen,

Certainly, it seems that on this board the number of ECs readily willing to leave the Catholic Communionn of Churches should anything befall your Byzantine Catholic Church is quite large! Of course we both know that sheer numbers or percentages do not justify an action.

You're right. But when you consider the fact that Byzantine Rite Catholicism is virtually identical, spiritually and theologically, to Orthodoxy, it makes perfect sense.

And I would agree with you that it would be better to be a believing Eastern Orthodox than a Roman Catholic who doesn't attempt to practice her faith, but would it really have to be one of the two? Do you really have so little liking for the Roman Church that you could not be an active and faithful follower of Christ were you to be a part of it? I find this...frankly, shocking and cannot understand it!

You don't really need to understand it. And the answers to your questions are yes, yes, and yes. Honestly, I have problems with Latin theology and liturgy, which I'd rather not get into here.

We all know that the Eastern Orthodox have made exceptions to the ABC rule as you call it, so let's not get hung on up semantics here. The teachings really do seem to be different.

As far as divorce, I fail to see your logic or your point. Just because many Roman Catholics do not follow the Church's teachings in this regard do not invalidate the teachings. I feel that you know this and are simply using this to make your point, knowing full well that it's completely illogical. Most of the bishops during the Arian heresy were Arians...but did that make it the truth? You get my point...

Oh, get off your high horse. *Officially* the Catholic Church condemns abc and doesn't recognize divorce and remarriage, but in practice they tolerate both... at least the Orthodox aren't being hypocrites. That's *my* point. And considering that I'm single and celibate, and never plan to marry, this frankly doesn't concern me anyway.

What concerns me is the liturgy, the holy mysteries, and the spirituality that leads me to a deeper love and communion with God.

God bless,

Karen

Teen,

I will second what I Karen has said. I realize that you do not understand this position. But I too feel, theological and dogmatic issues aside (well, for the sake of these questions we'll pretend we can do that) that it is a case of either/or.

The Latin Rite is, for me personally, empty.

A candle needs oxygen in order to burn. Right? Remove the oxygen and there is no more fire.

On a personal spiritual level, picturing myself as the candle, the liturgy and spiritual practices of the Latin Rite (particularly, though not limited to, the Novus Ordo) is oxygen deficient.

Were I to be in a position where my only option were to worship in the Latin Rite I have no doubt that I would soon find myself simply going through the motions and eventually being a "Chreaster" if not a completely non-practicing Catholic.

In Christ,

Carole

Teen,

Apology accepted. I don't go as far as Carole or Karen. I think I could find fulfillment in a TLM but that would not be my first choice. As Pope John Paul II said once and I don't have the reference handy "Marian Devotion comes before Petrine Doctrine". To put it another way Theosis trumps law.

CDL

A)What is a Ruthenian?
And I'm still biting my tongue. Why all the negativity folks?

I don't necessarily think that it is negativity to know that a certain Rite is not spiritually fulfilling for you. Or in my case to realize that, having been referred to Orthodox sources to learn more about Eastern Catholicism, I have questions about the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church is necessarily negativity. It just is.

What negativity???
A Ruthenian is a Rusin. The people who lived in Transcarpathia and from which the particular version of the Divine Liturgy was developed. It does not refer to a country per se.

CDL

JP,

My parish couldn't care less if someone was "Ruthenian" or not. Indeed, they are downright glad to have someone new join them, regardless of ethnicity. I suspect there are lots of BC parishes like that too.

-- John

Our parish is very much like yours, John. Yes there are some older members of he parish who are very proud of their ethnic heritage, but they're always happy to share their knowledge and to welcome new people.

They don't even care that I'm a half-Canadian mutt of Irish and German descent!

A) I know what a Rusyn is, I was being goofy.
B) Moses said to the Pharoah, "Let my Carole go"
My dearest Carole, I wasn't referring to you. I'm your biggest fan.
C) Dan, where I live, halushki is served on the salad bars in restaurants, pierogies are plentiful and so forth.
D) John Patrick, my family and many Rusyn families referred to people simply as "our people." actually, the term still gets used. I had a lady say to me, "I wish I we were Rusyn, we're ______." I said, you are, you're one of our people. She smiled from ear to ear.

I posted that I'm fed up with liturgical abuses in the N.O. AND I LOVE The Divine Liturgy!!!

But, I can't switch to Orthodoxy, I also feel that there are contradictions in some of Her polemics. Please, please, please don't get me wrong, I love all of my Orthodox bretheren. It pains me that we all can't go to a Divine Liturgy with Frs. Anthony, Stephanos, Elias, et al celebrating with help from Deacons Diak, John Montalvo, et al. How glorious it would be to be in the Communion line behind Alice, Zenovia, Rilian, CDL and all of our friends here on the Forum. I pray everyday for the reunion of our Churches. But as a Catholic, I would still attend a Catholic Liturgy.

It seem to me that to do otherwise would be acting like the SSPX. No offense intended.