www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Religious groups rally for immigrants

Once again I see the inability to separate the political issues from the real issues.

As for what kind of job I have - again. That is not the point at issue.

The point is, let me see if I can make this clear CHARITY. Got it?

The point is the federal government telling the Church how to go about being the Church.

The Church is not a civil legal entity. The Church is not restricted by boundaries. The Church is universal, eternal and supernatural. Charity to our fellow man should never, let me try repeating that NEVER, be denied.

No Christian ever has any just or moral reason to avoid helping those less fortunate.

You all can continue to make this about politics. But it isn't.

This is about the federal government choosing to prohibit the Church from doing what the Church is supposed to do. This is about the federal government punishing charitable organizations and charitable individuals for trying to alleviate a problem that is of the government's own making.

You want to be angry about illegal immigration? Fine. But direct that anger where it belongs. Not at me. Or Memo. Or anyone else who believes that charity isn't politics and politics has no business in charity.

Direct it at the government who has laws so complex that even those charged with the task of enforcing the laws don't understand them. Direct it at the lawmakers who don't work hard enough to equitable, fair and clear immigration laws.

But in the final analysis - this topic isn't about those things. It is about alleviating human suffering. It is about brining the love of Christ to our fellow man. It is about what we do to the least of them and what we are doing to Christ.

None of the self-righteous, hate-filled and ignorant rantings I've heard change what this conversation is really about.

Carole

I'm fine with leaving churches and charitable organizations out of the legal picture and not penalizing them. However, companies that actively recruit illegal aliens - and that's what they are, not immigrants - need to be prosecuted. You can be sure those companies are not out to practice Christian charity, but are more likely trying to exploit a cheap labor source.

I also believe that No Christian should ever help those who break the law...which means he/she conspires against the law.

No Christians should have the conscience of tolerating identity thefts, obtaining false documents, using fake social security number (or even use someone else's ssn), etc.

No Christian should have the conscience of tolerating undue hardships and difficulties imposed on Americans and LEGAL residents due to Illegal immigrants. (I.E. hospitals closing down because of illegals, difficulty getting a job, overcrowded schools compromising levels of education, many many more)

No Christian should help those who break the law to evade the law.

WHAT DOES the Church do to the illegals that the rest of us don't do??? WHAT??? That's what I want to KNOW!!!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

ByzanTN,

You are right that immigrants who are here illegally are different from those who are here legally. You also make valid points about companies who hire illegal immigrants for human exploitation.

However, the article that started this diatribe and incessant stream of vitriol is not about US companies that exploit cheap labour (here in the US or by outsourcing). The article is about priests, bishops, rabbis, ministers, etc who are willing, if need be, to go to jail rather than obey a law that interferes with how religious organizations offer charity to people. That is the point that people seem to be missing intentionally.

Carole

spdundas,

With all due respect your vitriol filled rhetoric and your obstinant refusal to see both the point at hand and the humanity of the people of whom you speak makes it impossible to discuss this with you.

You are, sir, irrational on this subject. I would suggest that you calm down and stop being so filled with hate and animosity. Perhaps Confession would be a good idea?

In Christ,

Carole

P.S. Since you believe that no Christian should ever help someone who has broken the law would you:

Help someone who has exceeded the speed limit? They've broken the law.

Help someone who took a pen from their employer? They've broken the law.

Engage in prision ministry? Those are people who have broken the law.

Should no one ever help or assist you because you've passed in a no passing zone? Driven over the speed limit? Or perhaps you've broken one of God's laws? Should we deny your humanity and refuse to assist you?

Where do you choose to draw the line?

Do you ask everyone you might assist if they have ever broken a law?

Do you ask every charity that you donate to if they ask for a criminal background check and lie detector test for everyone they help?

Are you this irrational for all crimes? Or did an illegal immigrant do something to you that makes them the specific target for your hatred?

Thanks for your righteousness to judge me. You have no place to judge me.

There's no hate here. Just fed up with the Church's hypocrisy to tolerate anything that's against the 10 Commandments by conspiring with those who break the law. That's not a rhetoric. It's the fact. Either you help those who break the law or you don't. It's that simple.

I cannot by conscience (as a Christian) to allow any of illegal immigration.

Would you by conscience give a ride to a bank robber after he just robbed a bank? If you gave him a ride, you're still a conspire to break that law even if you did NOT rob a bank at all.

So in the same sense...the Church helping the illegals are doing just the same. I cannot stand for that at all.

It has NOTHING to do with whether the illegals are human or not. BTW, I'm tired of their rhetoric that they are "humans". SO WHAT! I am HUMAN TOO! Are they more human than I am? Their cries for humanities is nothing but sort of sensationalism tactic to sway the sympathizers.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

I didn't judge you. I made a suggestion that you might avail yourself of the Sacrament. That is not judgement.

As for the rest of your rant.

I notice that you claim to be unable to help anyone who breaks a law. But you didn't answer my questions. Is it all laws? Or just this one? Would you refuse charity to someone who drove to fast? Drove under the influence? Did drugs? Stole from a convenience store?

Do you question every recipient of your charity about all possible illegal activities?

You speak out about giving charity to those who go against the 10 Commandments. Does that mean that you will offer no charity to anyone who is a sinner?

And what about the children of these immigrants? They have made no choices to break any laws. Do you deny them charity for the sins of their fathers and mothers?

Face it, spdundas, you're just as hypocritical as you accuse the Church of being.

Have a nice day.

It has everything to do with them being human.

Do you think that they are less human than you? Are you somehow better than they are? More moral? Less of a sinner?

Charity and help for a fellow human who is suffering is more important than a green card. Jesus Christ knows no borders and neither should his love.

None of the venom in your posts will change that simple fact.

Yes you are human. They are human. We are all human and we all deserve basic dignity and kindness. Period.

I�m going to step in here and make a few comments.

First to the topic itself. The current legislation before Congress in no way makes it illegal for charitable / religious organizations or individuals to offer humanitarian assistance to those in need who are in the United States illegally. The legislation does propose making it a crime to assist those persons here illegally to continue to remain here illegally. Before tearing apart the proposed legislation one really ought to take a look at exactly what it is proposing.

Second, anger is always inappropriate to the Forum. The line between spirited debate and anger has been crossed by several participants, most notably by SPDundas and Carole. I ask all to pray before composing their posts and then pray again before posting them. The rule of charity remains the primary rule for all participants.


Charity and help for a fellow man who is suffering is certainly more important than a green card. We must feed those who are hungry and clothe those who are naked. Yet it certainly is no violation of Catholic Teaching to feed the hungry while also calling the authorities to arrest and deport them if they are here illegally. The Church does not oppose the right of sovereign nations to control immigration.

The Governor of Arizona recently vetoed a bill passed by the Legislature which would require state officers to arrest "illegal immigrants," their sole offense being in the US unlawfully. The various police/sheriff departments urged the Governor to veto the bill. Local law enforcement officials saw this bill as a profiling nightmare. Does the color of my skin or my surname constitute probable cause for my being stopped, even though my family has lived in what is now the U.S. Southwest since the Spanish colonial period? They also argued that law enforcement has never arrested anyone for a civil offense. More importantly, this is a federal jurisdictional matter.

Instead of throwing more money at so-called "border security," Congress needs to allocate funds for the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services to hire and train more people to process immigration requests.

Both the USA and Canada have always welcomed immigrants to this land, but there have always been basic rules and regulations for admitting newcomers. For example see this history story on how the government in Canada selected Ukrainians to settle the Western Prairies.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/legacy/chap-2a.html

Basic education (3rd grade), good health, learned agricultural skills, and other qualities were the basic qualification for entry. Sure, some people slipped through the cracks, but there have been rules and regulation for generations on who could be admitted.

My maternal grandparents were immigrants as was my father. They had to meet basic immigration standards to enter this land. When they arrived, they played by the rules set forth by the government as clearly Memo did. This process has helped to enrich this land, and to some degree pass it�s wealth on to the four corners of the earth.

Unfortunately, the illegal alien problem (notice I did not use the term immigrant � �cause they are criminals not immigrants) is already having negative consequences. Their presence has taxed municipal, health, law enforcement, educational and other resources in many areas. For example, the Boston area, there are over 500,000 criminal aliens from Brazil alone. Their presence has caused property values to skyrocket because they have to be housed in the existing dwellings. Native born Americans who have lived there for generations can no longer afford housing and must move to far away areas with the ultimate effect of breaking family ties. Corporations move away because they can no longer attract educated workers at reasonable professional wages. This causes tax revenues to fall but the illegal criminals continue using all public services draining coffers and creating downward spiraling effect � and that�s the impasse Californian are in now.

This country needs LOTS of immigrants from all parts of the world, and yes they will endure some discrimination as all newcomers do, but they will continue coming because it�s still a good place and there is hope for a better life.

It is up to our government officials to determine who, when, and why � not the church. The church knows squat about economics . Our elected officials put their hands on the bible to uphold the constitution of the USA. They did not put their hands on the constitution to uphold the bible.

I.F.

Dear Annie_SFO,

Please forgive me! I did not mean to imply that you had said anything against illegal immigrants. The collective address of that post was meant simply to thank all for expressing their opinions. When I wrote, "I am, however, deeply saddened by the virulence and the vitriol that has been written thus far", etc., I didn't mean to imply that you had done any of that vitriolic writing yourself, but rather that it had been written (by some people -- not you!). Your post, IMO, was extremely balanced and fair. In fact, I agree completely with everything you've written in this thread. Again, please accept my apologies.


Peace,
Alex

I.F.

If you wish to make accusations, I'd suggest you educate yourself on the appropriate legal terminology. Unlawful or illegal immigration is not (yet) a crime in the US, it is a civil offense. There is a world of difference in the law between a criminal offense and a civil offense. All criminals are law-breakers, but not all law-breakers are criminals.

Here in the Midwest we've had the largest outbreak of mumps in 20 years. Tuberculosis is also on the rise as well as other diseases we thought were basically eradicated.

This is one of the results of having no control over who comes in to the country. It's not just a matter of being charitable to our fellow humans, it's about national security.

Before anyone else complains that the U.S. isn't treating its illegal immigrants from Mexico humanely enough, perhaps they should look at how Mexico treats its OWN illegal immigrants?

Few Protections for Migrants to Mexico [AP] [hosted.ap.org]

Why aren't some of the protestors in the U.S. protesting at their local Mexican consulates about this sort of thing?