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I'm sorry but that is NOT Christianity and has nothing at all to do with Our Lord's message and I'm very surprised to hear that. It is the language of force and power and certainly not that of the Church

Carole,

I'm SICK AND TIRED of your canting "Hatred hatred hatred" or "un-Charity" when you don't agree with me or anyone who's against immigration.

It's NOT hatred at all!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

First, sir, don't yell at me. Typing in all caps is viewed as yelling. That is common netiquette.

Secondly, I wasn't referring only to you. And honestly, to my ears it sounds like hated and venom and vitriol. I cannot help what I hear. If you wish your words not to be perceived as hatred then perhaps you should choose more care in how you word things.

But talking about shooting people and electrifying people ... I can't see how that can sound like anything but hatred.

In Christ,

Carole

US Border Patrol agents have been physically attacked and even shot at. Under such circumstances there is nothing un-Christian about using deadly force.

The belief that sovereign nations do not have the right to police their own borders and control immigration into and out of their country is not a fundamental teaching of the Faith. Father Deacon John�s accusation that I am somehow rejecting the teaching authority of the Church is off base.

One needs to look at the presentation of Pope John Paul the Great on this issue within the context of everything he has said (something the Catholic bishops of the USA have not done in their picking and choosing from his teachings). The Church officially supports the rights of countries to control immigration while at the same time expecting hospitality to be extended to all people.

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�Illegal immigration should be prevented, but it is also essential to combat vigorously the criminal activities which exploit illegal immigrants. The most appropriate choice, which will yield consistent and long-lasting results is that of international co-operation which aims to foster political stability and to eliminate underdevelopment. The present economic and social imbalance, which to a large extent encourages the migratory flow, should not be seen as something inevitable, but as a challenge to the human race's sense of responsibility.�

Message of Pope John Paul II for World Migration Day, 1996

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Note again the part that �Illegal immigration should be prevented� and then read everything the Holy Father has written on this in its proper context. Father Deacon John is raising certain portions of what Pope John Paul the Great has said to the level of dogmatic teaching (a �fundamental teaching of the faith�) and ignoring other portions (not to mention that even the Holy Father himself did not present identify his teaching as dogmatic).

If we placed the National Guard on the borders with orders to shoot anyone crossing illegally then no one could attempt to cross illegally (once they knew we were serious about protecting the sovereignty of the United States). No one need get killed (a few warning shots would probably be enough to show we are serious). Combine this with the immediate deportation of those who cross into the USA illegally. Indeed, the bulk of the weight for this problem at our southern border falls upon the country of Mexico. The government of Mexico has been extremely hypocritical when comparing the way it treats immigrants who cross its own southern border and the way it encourages its people to violate our laws by crossing our southern border. Mexico has done little to address the problem of poverty within that country. I am always saddened when Americans primarily blame America for the problems of other countries.

As I have indicted earlier, I support legal immigration. It should be easier to come to the United States legally than illegally. I support the right of a nation to protect its borders to prevent people coming here illegally. I also support immigration reform that would double or triple the number of immigrants who can come here legally (with verification of non-criminal status in their home countries and workable methods of strict enforcement of law). Since it is probably impossible to deport 12 million people who are here illegally I would support a guest worker status that would not lead to citizenship (we cannot reward illegal activity or put those who break our laws ahead of people who follow the rules to come here legally). There is absolutely nothing unchristian in what I have stated.


No, the simplistic thinking is that the answer to the problem of illegal immigration is to bulldoze the borders so there is no security. If you believe the answer to world poverty is to invite all poor people to America get ready for 1-2 BILLION immigrants (the poorest of Mexico are rich when compared to the poor of Africa).

The real answer to poverty is to change the political and economic structures of those countries that allow their people to remain in poverty. Christians must see and hear the cry of the poor everywhere in the world and foster the building of societies that can raise them from poverty. Demanding open borders and amnesty for those people who cross our borders illegally while telling those millions patiently waiting in other countries to come here legally that they can�t come because we�ve rewarded lawbreakers is not the answer.

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�Speaking of the other category of migrants - asylum seekers and refugees - I wish to underline how the tendency is to stop at the question of their arrival while disregarding the reasons for which they left their native land.

The Church sees this entire world of suffering and violence through the eyes of Jesus, who was moved with pity at the sight of the crowds wandering as sheep without a shepherd (cf. Mt 9: 36). Hope, courage, love and "�creativity' in charity" (Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, n. 50) must inspire the necessary human and Christian efforts made to help these brothers and sisters in their suffering.�

Message of His Holiness Benedict XVI for the 92nd World Day of Migrants and Refugees, 2006

There is no legitimate comparison here. The Berlin Wall was intended to keep people from leaving the Soviet Union. A wall at our southern border would not be to keep people from leaving the United States, but to keep them from coming here illegally. No one has proposed taking away the legal methods of entering or exiting the United States. Even if we managed to stop all illegal immigration we would still have one of the most liberal immigration policies of any country in the world.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

A sizeable number of those who cross our borders illegally are men and women with criminal records in their native countries. It must also be noted that it has been shown that some of them are of Middle Eastern origin. While it certainly possible (and highly probable) that the vast majority of those attempting to come here illegally are only seeking a better life there is always the chance that some come here to harm us (think terrorists carrying dirty bombs or whatever). The responsibility of a country to protect its own citizens from those who would harm us can justifiably include the use of force.

Admin,

I already stated I do not support illegal immigration. Obviously the US cannot take in the entire Third World. I agree with most of what you stated in your response but it is easily said but not so easily done. If the Government can't solve our economic problems, which are really minor compared to places like Mexico, I doubt they can fix the economic problems of Mexico and the rest of Latin America.

The otherside of the equation is Mexicans wouldn't be coming in droves if American businessmen and farmers weren't hiring them. Punish them, they will stop hiring illegals, they will stop coming, at least in the numbers they come in now.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

Thanks for your post. We are in agreement on many points.

I don�t expect the U.S. Government to solve the economic problems within Mexico but we can always redouble our effort to cajole the Mexican authorities to engage in real reform. I know a lot of people hate free market capitalism but it has been shown to lift nations out of poverty (especially when engaged in by people who follow basic Judeo-Christian ethics).

I also agree that we need to punish American businessmen and farmers who hire illegal aliens. If there is need for more people to work here in this country the answer is to bring them here legally and give them the full protection of the law. Hiring them �under the table� should carry very stiff penalties (which, of course, should actually be enforced!). Perhaps now that we are again in an election cycle the politicians will be motivated to do what is right, even if only for the wrong reasons (to get he vote).

Admin

I wholeheartedly admit that our Republic has the right, or rather, the duty to regulate immigration. The problem, as I see it, is that the immigration laws and policies are outdated and do not respond to immigration requests in a timely manner.

The practice of our government seems to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration, and then every 20 years, when it become politocally necessary to do so, pass some type of legislation to regularize the status of those illegal immigrants. Perhaps this is much cheaper than hiring enough staff to process the paperwork and conduct background investigations in a consistent manner.

There are enough criminal laws on the books to deal with illegal immigration, eg., laws against human trafficking. This addresses the problem of those who exploit illegal immigrants- the coyotes- and the illegal immigrants themselves as co-conspirators.

As to those who are already here, their offense (as I and others have pointed out) is not criminal but civil, much like a traffic violation or a building code violation. Both of these types of violations are punishable by fines and/or the opportunity to remediate the violation. Illegal immigrants should be required to pay a fine commensurate with their ability to show they paid federal and state income taxes, ie, a larger fine for those who cannot prove they paid income taxes. They should be subject to any background checks that are required of those immigrants who come into our country in the lawful manner. Provide them an opportunity to apply for permanent resident status, but not citizenship. Finally, the federal government needs to properly staff the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services.

I would advocate that you all urge your respective Senators to pass the Kennedy-McCain immigration reform bill. I remember as a polical science undergrad, we had a US Senator speak to our class. He stated the goal of the US Senate was to save the Republic from the craziness of the House of Representatives. May that continue to be true.

I am glad to find that Father Deacon John recognizes the right of our country to regulate immigration!

We are in agreement that the immigration laws and policies are outdated and in need of reform. The answer, of course, is to reform them instead of supporting illegal immigration.

What we need first is enforcement of existing laws (the bill in the House is the best way to do that). The problem with the Kennedy-McCain bill is that it grants amnesty and a road to citizenship, thus rewarding those who have broken our laws, further penalizing those waiting to come here legally (who very often suffer in worse poverty than the poor in Mexico), and encouraging more people to come here illegally. Only after the borders are secure can we begin to address the need to update immigration law.

Simple fines for those here illegally will not work to control illegal immigration. What is the deterrent for illegals seeking to come here when they know it is not a criminal offense but more like a traffic offense? No, being here illegally must be made a felony and carry stiff penalties (either immediate deportation or a lengthy jail sentence followed by deportation with no chance of ever coming back legally). Once the border is secure and the flow of illegals mostly stopped then we can begin to address what to do with those already here illegally (and Father Deacon John and I are in agreement that any permanent residency must come with the specific exclusion of any future possibility of citizenship).

Dear Administrator,

I recall many years ago, when NYC was in desparate straits, that we had a problem with the amount of Puerto Ricans coming here. They preferred NYC at the time, and many if not all, liked the larger amounts they received on their welfare checks. Amounts that were allotted to New Yorkers because of the higher cost of living. I have to mention that it was humorous watching the planes (with their cheap fares), flying back and forth on the weekends.

We have to realize that at that time, Puerto Rico was the most populated place in the world, and as is usually the case, one of the poorest.

Eventually the problem was solved by having more companies locate in Puerto Rico. Let's face it who would have wanted filthy NYC with it's terrible climate, when they could live in sunny Puerto Rico.

Now I thought that we were going to solve the Mexican immigration problem in the same way...so what happened? I'm not that much up on the news, but I did hear that American companies prefer locating their facilities in China instead.

I wonder if the Mexican government, by allowing the illegals to enter this country so freely, is trying to pressure us into doing something about the poverty there.

We also have to take into account that the Hispanics have always perceived us as being prejudiced against them, and our actions are being watched very closely. We have to make sure that our reactions towards the illegal immigrants will not justify their concerns. It could become political suicide for us.

Zenovia

There are many American companies in Mexico. Plus the American government have given Mexico BILLIONS of dollars in aid. PLUS many Charitable organization give millions in funds, food, clothing, etc.

So, the question is, with all that, WHY are they still coming through here?

We give them billions of dollars and yet they keep coming here and get MORE BILLIONS out our taxes. Boy, aren't they money hungry people?

I heartily agree with everything the Administrator said...he has better words and better way of saying things than I do...I always use bad choice of words that make me appear to be hateful person (which is far from it).

I think the Mexicans should protest against their government and make their own reforms. Mexico can be one of the most beautiful countries around if they take care of it. Mexico has one of the largest natural resources around, so why aren't they taking advantage of that?

I remember back in the early 80's...there was a massive revolts against the Chinese government...what a great courage many people have! They have MUCH more of a risk to even think about protesting than the Mexicans have with their government. Why don't they have the guts to protest there instead of protesting here in America that they don't legally belong to demanding (what I call a "reward") amnesty and automatic citizenship. That is just so far beyond me.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
American Citizen who loves Mexican cruisine

PS, I think it's very uncharitable to allow the illegals coming in here and leaving their country behind UNRESOLVED and UNCHANGED. Do you think we have the obligation to force these Mexicans to deal with their own goverment by closing the borders and deporting all of them out which SHOULD give them the motivation to make reforms for their own country so that they can become stronger and better citizens of Mexico...and come out of poverty in Mexico. Mexico has one of the largest natural resources just as I mentioned above.

Also, there are a lot of other illegals such as the Irish. I'm 3rd Generation Irish/Scottish American and I still say to the Irish illegals to get out of my country. Doesn't matter if you're Mexican, Irish, German, whoever or wherever they're from...

Hi,

Christ is Risen!

I will reply to several posts with this one.

Regarding HR 4437:

Well, the letter of the law would certainly allow for such a radical interpretation, so Cardinal Mahoney's objections are not completely out of place.

Of course we all understand how ridiculously difficult would it be to implement it in such a radical way, so nobody actually expected that to happen.

But unlike the law in Utah that prohibits whale hunting, this particular law would serve the purpose to criminalize almost anyone at the discretion of the Judicial system, because the law would indeed make anyone providing any assistance to an undocumented immigrant, a felon. The fact that it would not be prosecuted in every instance is irrelevant, the problem is that it could be procecuted in *any* instance. That is what is problematic.

Regarding the Pope's teaching about immigration:
How convenient!

Yes, let's pick and choose what we want to believe and practice.

Regarding the Berlin wall:
That, I do not know.

What I do know is that some of your comments are not correct:

You might have meant that as an extrapolation, but the truth of the matter is that the Berlin Wall was not within what used to be the Soviet Union.

The Berlin Wall was used to divide, well, the city of Berlin, so that Germans on one side could not be together with the Germans on the other side.

A waste of resources, if you ask me. You'd still have people crossing over it, under it and around it.

We are not Germans. If anything, the wall would challenge people to cross it, just for the heck of it.


Now, someone has related obeying the law with the 4th Commandment: Honor your father and mother.

This I can understand and agree with.

However, I cannot see how providing assistance to people who might have broken the law becomes in itself a transgression against this theology.

Isn't this like not taking care of your parents because you have to tithe? Isn't this just making up a religiously-flavored excuse to justify your sin?

Now:
Well, the use of force in border control activities could be acceptable, especially in the case of self-defense.

However, we've seen things that are COMPLETELY unjustified, such as shooting Mexican nationals who are in Mexican territory from the American side of the fence. That is not only immoral, it is a full-blown act of war. We've also seen, and this has been caught on film, border patrol agents allowing undocumented immigrants to drown in the Grande river while attempting to cross the border. This is morally unacceptable.

My main concern is that the legitimate issues of border control are being used as a diversion from the other issue, the 11+ million people who are no longer a border control peoblem.

Finally, to those who suggest denying a path to citizenship to those who entered the country illegally I'd say that this idea doesn't sound too bad (mostly because the only difference between a citizen and a LPR is that LPRs cannot vote or be voted and need to keep the USCIS informed of their address at all times, again, it could be reasonable), provided that:

1. This in no way affects those who are born in the US to people who entered illegally or those who entered the US illegally as minors. In the first case, these are US citizens by birth, no question about it. In the second case, it is against legal principles to hold minors guilty of faults commited by their parents or guardians.

-AND-

2. The legal immigration system is really and deeply overhauled in such a way that illegal immigration becomes really a matter of bad choices, rather than necessity for those who really need to immigrate.

Shalom,
Memo

Dear Spdundas you said:

"I think the Mexicans should protest against their government and make their own reforms. Mexico can be one of the most beautiful countries around if they take care of it. Mexico has one of the largest natural resources around, so why aren't they taking advantage of that?"

I say:

That is the problem. The Mexicans might protest against the government in the way Castro did in Cuba and Chavez in Venezuela. In other words, it might become a communist state, and our enemy. We can't afford it.

Now with Cuba, the situation was different, although it almost brought us to a nuclear disaster because of the Soviet Union, but with Venezuela and Mexico, it will bring us to an economic disaster. We need the oil that Venezuela and Mexico supply us with.

Things are not always as simple as they look.

Zenovia