www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Church Slavonic in Church.

That's odd, I always thought he spoke Portuguese.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Robert K.

My new site may be of interest to you:

www.geocities.com/greekcatholicliturgy/KanonBVM [geocities.com]

It has the Canon of the Lamentations of the Theotokos in English and Old Church Slavonic, according to the use of our Carpatho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic Church circa 1950! The text may have some latinizations, but it is in liturgical english and very nice!

Enjoy.

In Christ and Mary,


Robert

Robert K.

I have had similiar feelings about Greek in the liturgy. Chanting Greek is by far more beautiful than English simply because English doesn't lend itself to chanting like Greek.

But even though Greek may be more beautiful and those who don't speak the language may even say so, it is absolutley meaningless to them. So for them, they are just nice sounds which have lost their purpose.

If you are serious about maintaining Old Slavonic then you'll have to do as I have done. Translate the services side by side with some phonetic (sp?) instruction. Only then could you really use the language constructively in an environment where not everyone understands it. And in the process, people can learn a few things.

All of these customs add to the richness of the experience no matter how small. I'm not saying we should worship these little customs, and there are many, but I have seen Orthodox Churches where many of these traditions were gone and I will tell you, it felt like something was missing.

As near as I can tell, it seems that when a church is overrun with improperly instructed westerners, all of the lesser known traditions dry up. An example might be basilopita, bows, or when to make the sign of the cross, ect.

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Kurt, I know you tend to flame bait when posting in any of your various posting handles, but you very well know that while Latin was a Roman Catholic teaching that "colored section" if and where they existed were not and were not allowed. So having "colored sections" never existed in the Church, just perhaps in some parishes by either wrongly rule or preference. Shame on you for implying otherwise!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friends,
I hope that I don't trample too many people in this statement but OF COURSE CHURCH SLAVONIC and ECCLESIASTICAL GREEK sound GREAT when chanted. The chant was written to go with those ancient languages and has been perfected over the centuries. Regretfully English is not a native Orthodox Language used for centuries by Orthodox Christians, instead we are laboring under poor translations and music being forced to meet either the Slavonic musical traditions or the Greek musical traditions---neither of which works well with English.

As a former Epsicopalian, I have heard beautiful chanting being done in either Celtic or Anglican Chanting/Plainsong etc. But this is not ORTHODOX or BYZANTINE and therefore is not used with the English texts as it could be.

There is currently a relatively new Convert to Orthodoxy, John Tavener, in England who is well trained in music ---he is attempting to bring some English musicology into English Orthodox Music/Chanting. How successful he will be has yet to be seen. His Byzantine Style English Christmas Carols sound very Medieval and appropriate to the Orthodox Text written in English. His most recent work, "Lamentations" (based upon the Lamentation Service of Good Friday) likewise is getting good reviews from Orthodox Critics who note that perhaps English Orthodoxy has found their St.Romanos. The trick is, "will world Orthodoxy be able to accept an English 8 tones" for an English Speaking Orthodox Church or English Speaking Byzantine catholic Church or is it just too soon for the Mother Churches?

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: Thomas ]

Im still not too sure why anyone would actually need to have english in the liturgy in order to understand it? After all, unlike the western mass, the Eastern liturgy changes very little from week to week. All a person would have to do to follow along is to get one of those books with enlish on one page and latinized cyrillic on the other and tht should help them to follow along. But we need not get all protestant on this understanding that everyone has to know every word of whats being said in the services. IMHO, the ascetical spirituality that one can gain from mrely hearing the repitition of the holy and divine language then by listening to a translation into our unsanctified and ever changing vernacular like some Lutheran or other clasification of Protestant.
When I first begain attending liturgy in my old parish in Philadelphia (BTW this was the very same Church as the former listmember Sergi of the "OLd World RUS" site belonged to, what every happened to him anyway?) I just went along and did what everybody else did. When the people crossed themselves, so did I, and when they bowed, the same from me. I learned to be a good Russian Orthodox Churchly person by observing the repitions of othrs instead of having to understand everything. THats the problem with everyone these days, they just cant be quit and participate, they have to know everything about what their doing and why its being done. Another rub off of our "free for all just because I came out of my mothers womb" democractic system in the good old US of A.
Perhaps we wouldnt have this dilemma anyway if we actually tok the time out to teach our youth the language of our holy forefathers insted of educating them in frivilocities. WE should also return to the old bi lingual prayerbooks with latinized cyrillic letters on one page and english on the others for the instruction of our youth. I own one such book and thats how I follow the liturgy (THough unfortunate for a grade A Russophile like me, the slavonic uses the soft H instead of the hard G, but I use the later anyway when singing). If the person still has a desire to know whats being said then let them dilligently study the old languae. But it would be better perhaps if they first learned the modern equvelant and then went on to the old stuff.
Im right now trying to learn Ukrainian Canadian from a dictionary of terms that I got off the internet. This is the language that was spoken by those Ukies on the plains of western Canada around the turn of the century and contains many english type words so it isnt actuallt pure Ukie. But its an easy start for someone like me who isnt very good at languages to get to speak one.
Robert K.

Dear Ilya,

1. Yes, the Lord speaks Church Slavonic! Let us pray that He listens to it as well! And hears it!

2. Maybe, this is why not too many are listening to God? :rolleyes:

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Thomas,

You've been keeping up with Sir (the title well deserved) John Tavener, I see.

Lamentations is his newest released work and I've purchased it myself last January. Of course, I have not yet listened to it; that will have to wait until next week.

His Mary of Egypt strangely enough is impossible to find. To my luck, I've been able to locate a used copy for sale.

He may have what is required to successfully transpose Byzantine music into English. English though, is a Western language of Germanic roots (and a lot of French and Latin), and it works well with Gregorian Chant (the Anglo-Catholics did their duty). But in the opinion of some, Byzantine Eastern tones and English present a dichotomy to some degree, since the phonetic and linguistic characteristics of the English tongue don't fit the Byzantine musical character like a glove. There will always be pioneers who try though, and I reckon, will succeed to some extent, pushing the envelope. Nontheless, I don't think it is worth pursuing zealously. I can't imagine Gregorian chant ever fitting with the Arabic language, while Coptic chant and Arabic don't create as much friction. England and Ireland's religious heritage are ultimately rooted in the Latin and Celtic traditions, not in Byzantine Orthodox tradition. A culture can't deny itself.

Byzantine tones and Gaelic however, now there's something to speculate about.

Keep that Tavener collection large and growing, Thomas.

Ilya,

The proper battle cry in the Levant is
Allah Rum!
The proper response to that is
"Ir Rum, danabo mabroom."
I'm afraid you'll have to ask an Arab what that means. I'm afraid I'll put my person in harm's way were I to divulge any rough translations.

Not many language contests though.

No trumpeting acclamations of "Allah Arabi" yet, except maybe by the Muslims, Arabic being the chosen language etc. Can't say I blame them; if God is a poet by trade, he couldn't have chosen a better language.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 03-23-2002: Message edited by: SamB ]