www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall False Churches masquerating as Catholic-Orthodox

I wanted to put this link because I see many people are interested in Eastern Christianity, and most of us have made Internet search about the Churches.
This is a very good link because it contains a list of false groups which use the name "orthodox" or "catholic" without being true Churches, and they often cause confussion among people who search the internet.

http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html

This is certainly an interesing site. IT seems to mirror the information in Melton's "American Religions" and also his: "American Religious Creeds". [Each is a three volume set of books, and they are not thin either.]

What I find most intriguing is the fact that there are hundreds if not thousands of these 'churches'. And their whole purpose seems to be to provide spiritual succor, and to do it in the guise of legitimate Church groups so that people won't consider it some 'matchbook' group.

Hence, their contortions to 'prove' that they are canonical. [And the 'proofs' are just incredible!]

Although there is certainly the aspect of specific individuals who are trying to make themselves 'legitimate' ecclesiatical figures through their 'lineage' and 'apostolicity', there is the underlying message (and conviction) that there is a real openness and need for spiritual grounding for folks who are otherwise alienated from the 'canonical' groups.

This appears to be true for the live-in lovers, the divorced who've been told they're worthless fornicators, the gays, the contraceptors, the addicts, and the theological stupids who don't comprehend the niceties of canonical arguments.

And these groups go after these folks to provide them with the "church" foundation that they crave and desire. For these folks, there is a sense (greater or lesser) that they need to have a spiritual value in their lives, but that the judgementalism of the legit groups will just dismiss them as hopeless and irredemptive sinners. And so these 'alternative' groups step in to fill the need of the alienated to fulfill their spiritual needs.

My question is: why the hell aren't WE doing something to grab these folks. It means going out on a limb, it means being in 'unholy' places, it means suspending all the "rules" of our lifestyles to go out and "get 'em!!!"

I get really ticked off at the fact that these groups sort of 'flourish' in their multi-faceted religiosity. And why does this happen? Because we folks of the 'mainstream' Church are scared to death to go out and witness.

Dan Lauffer's challenge to evangelize is right on target. But I think I would go beyond what he is thinking about and make the challenge to do more than the "turn on the Rectory porch light and hope that they will come" or have "greeters" for those who've made the decision to visit the parish. We've got to gird up our loins (sounds kinda weird!!) and just get out there where THEY are. In THEIR environment. And for heaven's sake, don't go out there dressed like Mormon missionaries in black pants, white shirts and dark ties. Wear a pair of jeans, an appropriate T-shirt, Reeboks, and a contemporary haircut.

Let's go get 'em!!! And put the fakers out of business.

Blessings!

Let's bait the hooks and start casting!

Shlomo Diak and Dr. John,
Go over to Byzantine Parish Life because the points that you made are part of a thread over there that I want to continue.

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon

Remie,

Thank you for the webpage. I was wondering about the canonical status of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church in Cleveland http://www.uaoc.org/

I won't put them on my "Light from the East in America" map since they are so dubious. Their website is concerned about apostolic lineage and such, kinda like those independent Catholic Churches that have a pedigree to the n'th degree in various trajectories of apostolic lineage.

Dear Dr. John,

Yes, I got to know some of these smaller "churches" and the clergy that staff them - just for the sake of interest.

And you are absolutely right.

The people they serve would probably be told by mainstream Churches that they "can come to Liturgy but can't come to Communion" etc. and so they go for these other groups.

I knew a woman who worked with me who was a priest of one of these groups. She use to live in a trailer park and had her chapel there. She visited with the people in the park, with the lonely, the elderly etc. She invited them all to attend her services. She does this full-time now.

Yes, she's not canonical.

But is she outside the Church? Formally, yes.

I think Christ can best answer that one, though.

Alex

"She visited with the people in the park, with the lonely, the elderly etc. She invited them all to attend her services. She does this full-time now. Yes, she's not canonical."

Alex,

Sometimes they do show up the canonical churches. Economy versus canon law.

Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." (Jn 10:16)

It is like the question on what consists of canonical scriptures? We celebrate feastdays based on non-canonical scriptures/gospels, but fail to read that which is canonical (Revelation).

Isn't the notion of canonical interesting?

I have been reading the posts on this thread very carefully. As most of you know, I spent 9 years in the active ministry as a priest in the Old Roman Catholic Church English Rite. I do not regret my choice of ministry and it did allow me to meet and minister to people who would never darken the door of a "canonical church". It was a difficult choice for me to leave the active ministry when I returned to union with the Catholic Church under the leadership of the Pope. My little flock fell apart, mainly chosing not to be a part of any other religious organization...all because they didn't feel they would be welcomed or felt uncomfortable because of past problems with their former Church home. If the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments are administered and people's lives and hearts are touched, then I could care less if the bishop or priest is canonical or not and I don't think Jesus cares that much either. There are a lot of charlatans, crooks and fakes in these Independent Churches, but we have the same in our so called canonical Churches as well. I have had over 15 years close involvement with the "independent" movement and have gotten to know several clergy of various jurisdictions. Most of the ones I have come across are genuinely trying to witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they understand it. Who is to say they are wrong? If they do no more than touch one heart and bring one person closer to God then they are doing as Jesus commanded us all to do.
Don

Dear Cantor Joe,

I think you've really put your finger on one of the most fascinating topics - canonicity.

Who determines what is canonical and what is not? On what basis etc.

Can something like an ordination be uncanonical and still be "valid?"

In short, what do we really mean when we use that term?

And while I'm ready to concede that that lady I mentioned is uncanonical, her simplicity and the way she reaches out to people just speaks to me of Christ.

The founder of the UAOC in 1921 was most definitely uncanonical. Many thought of him as a trouble-maker.

He dared challenge church officialdom in his day, translate the liturgy from Slavonic into the modern language, bring back folkloric customs that the people loved and that communicated the Christian message to them.

My grandparents always bowed their heads when they heard his name mentioned . . .

Alex

Dear Don

Amen to that, Father, Amen to that!!

Did not the Beatitudes include one in which Christ praised those who would be "excommunicated" as they did to people in His day for His sake?

Reflecting on that for a moment, does it not suggest that what is truly important is our following of Christ and that this primary call is ahead of even canonical laws and regulations?

I believe our Lord foresaw that conflict would sometimes arise between what we perceive to be our duty in faithfulness to Him and what our church says we must do based on principles that do not always reflect the best of the Christian spirit.

There is an Old Roman Catholic Church next door to my dog's veterinarian.

They have a ministry rescuing animals from the streets and from situations of abuse.

I go in there a lot - my wife says it's O.K. as long as I don't come out with another pet . . .

(But the kittens keep rubbing their paws against my hand!)

I think we can fulfill, in a cursory way, the "requirements" of the canons or the law.

But weren't the people who did that in Christ's time the first He went after?

I get a sense that our Lord just may be a little annoyed with our attitudes about what is "canonical" versus what is in accordance with His Spirit.

And you will always be a Priest, according to the Order of Melchisedek!!

Have a good weekend, have a drink or two and let loose a bit!

Alex

Dear Don,

You said:

"If the Gospel is preached and the Sacraments are administered and people's lives and hearts are touched, then I could care less if the bishop or priest is canonical or not and I don't think Jesus cares that much either. There are a lot of charlatans, crooks and fakes in these Independent Churches, but we have the same in our so called canonical Churches as well. I have had over 15 years close involvement with the "independent" movement and have gotten to know several clergy of various jurisdictions. Most of the ones I have come across are genuinely trying to witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ as they understand it. Who is to say they are wrong? If they do no more than touch one heart and bring one person closer to God then they are doing as Jesus commanded us all to do."

I think that in your posting you turned light onto a truth that is not shared by many.

There are many little ones who have been wounded one way or another, real or perceived, by those who represent the Canonical Apostolic Churches. They treasure the sacramental life of the Churches and the communion with the Saints. They find solace and growth in life in Christ in many of these little Churches with their "wandering" bishops.

The issue of these bishops is an important one. They cite their Apostolic Succession because it is important to their people that they approach God as He manifests Himself and works through the Sacraments. They want to celebrate the Eucharist that is a hallmark of the rest of the Church.

If the Church is where the Bishop is and where the Eucharist is celebrated, why are they not at least an imperfect form of Church. But then, aren't we all in churches which are considered less than perfect by some other Church?

I belong to the Church of Miami in communion with the rest of the the Catholic Communion of Churches. At some level, I think that all of us in those Churches are in communion with these other little ones in the Churches that are looked down on by so many, too.

May you be blessed for the service that you offered among these who are considered, in many quarters, the least of our brothers and sisters. You are a priest forever, Don. Truly you showed yourself to be a servant of servants of Christ.

Steve

Don:

Why don't you become a priest again? How did the Church received you?

My friends:

I think that there are non-canonical churche swho are totally venerable and true, like the ROCOR, the Macedonians, the Old Calendarists, the Milan Synod.

But this site makes a special enphasis in listing all those false Churches, not because they're uncanonical, but because they cheat on people who search about Orthodoxy or Catholicism, offering "western rites", "sacraments" and all those things.
As Don said, I 'm sure that there are a lot of good people who join those churches because the true Churches are sometimes hard to reach, and they don't find much charity there.

"There are many little ones who have been wounded one way or another, real or perceived, by those who represent the Canonical Apostolic Churches. They treasure the sacramental life of the Churches and the communion with the Saints. They find solace and growth in life in Christ in many of these little Churches with their "wandering" bishops."

These are wise words. Sometimes, the "institutional church" with all its canonicity has caused so much grief and pain. It reminds me of stories of children who grow up who tells stories how their 'real' parents neglected them, made them feel like sh*t at every opportunity, fed them lies, and, at times, tortured them physically and mentally because there was no love; and then tell how their neighbors, grandparents, or other adult caretakers were, to them, their lovable, likeable and huggable parents of fond memory.

There are many wonderful and spiritual bishops and priests who are living icons. There are also those who have left a deep, dark mark on our souls. In turn, many have voted with their feet.

"But this site makes a special enphasis in listing all those false Churches, not because they're uncanonical, but because they cheat on people who search about Orthodoxy or Catholicism, offering "western rites", "sacraments" and all those things."

Remie,

Exactly! They seem so stealth-like. Yet, how many canonical churches have cheated their own people into thinking that since they have the proper rites and sacraments, that charity, love, and kindness no longer mattered? that since they are the "real thing" that their people can continue being members of communities where they are not welcomed? How many clerics have used this very fact to Lord over their parishioners? We should observe what it is that allows parishes to grow and what doesn't.

"Why don't you become a priest again? How did the Church received you?"

Remie,

I haven't stopped being a priest, I'm just inactive and without a canonical mission. When I returned to union with the Catholic Church by way of the Ukrainian Catholic Church, it was as a layman. My priest did encourage me to seek recognition of the Orders I had received as an Old Roman Catholic, but I chose not to do so. Had I wished to continue as an active priest, I would have stayed where I was. But I can understand why people enter into ministry in these Churches, and I firmly believe they are doing God's work...sometimes in spite of their behavior. God's Spirit moves where it wills, no matter what hindrances we may put in it's way. I think these Churches prove the theory of economy we hear so much about in Eastern theology. I also understand why lay people choose to be a be a part of these Churches as well. In my little group I had a bit of everything...all were welcome without question or judgement. All were listened to, hugged when needed, fed (our dinners were quite popular) and made to feel a part of an extended family. I must confess I do miss that still. My current parish at the Ukrainian Church is that way too, but even so it isn't quite the same. So I think we need to cut these people some slack and leave it to God to sort out. Don

I agree wholeheartedly with Don and with the other posters who see valid service to the Lord in these smaller independent groups.

There are, to be sure, fakers and charlatans out there who make use of the externals of religion to feather their own nests. I remember "Rev. Ike" who used to tell people to send him their money. In his ideology, God wants everyone to be rich. By sending Rev. Ike your money, God would reward you by leading you to riches. Lots of people sent lots of money. I recall the old proverb: a fool and his treasure are soon parted.

What I do find totally fascinating is the eclectic collection of titles, liturgies, vestments and theologies that have been gathered from all over the world. The "independent Byzantine Catholic jurisdiction - we are NOT Roman Catholic" has a bishop in Long Beach who is Prince-Primate of Hungary, wears a monsignor's cassock, and their patriarch is Mar Markus, replete with klobuk and veil. Fascinating.

In a fit of lunacy a while back, I went through Melton's book to list out the "Eastern" jurisdictions and to trace who consecrated whom, in what year, and how their affiliations came and went. I realized that I would need a piece of paper the size of my living room wall to fill in the little boxes and draw the arrows. Most of them somehow trace themselves to Archbishops Stanley and Villatre, both of whom, I believe, started out as Anglicans, went to Syria and got themselves consecrated bishop and then came to the U.S. Most of these groups were definitely western rite oriented, but the eastern push came along much later and blossomed into a plethora of groups.

Keep reading, y'all.

Blessings!!