www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall How the homosexual activist movement has targeted America's children

Axios makes some excellent points. There is no moral right to be dishonest, employ false accusations even in defense of a just cause or to deny others their freedom of conscience. As Christians - Catholic and Orthodox, Eastern and Western - we need to proclaim the teachings of the Church while always respecting each individual and their freedom of conscience. The Church condemns those who in any way assault homosexuals as much (if not more) than it condemns homosexual sexuality activity. I stand with the bishops who clearly condemned the unjust murder of Matthew Shepherd. Respecting individual persons and their freedoms, however, can never amount to approval and acceptance of sinful activities.

I respectfully suggest that Axios' comparison of public homosexuals and those who use artificial contraception is flawed. The Catholic Church has defrocked priests who did not hold the teaching on artificial contraception as it has defrocked them when they have publicly disagreed with the teaching on the wrongness of the active homosexual lifestyle. It has also soundly condemned those organized groups who claim to be Catholic yet disagree with the Church's teachings. The current crisis in the Church certainly shows hypocrisy on the part of the bishops (among other things) but even this hypocrisy does not dilute the Church's teaching. It's the case of hating the sin while loving the sinner until he or she gives up his or her improper behavior.

Name one, from a legitimate source, where a conviction was made in a US court. Moe

It is interesting how the media is targeting the relationship of the Church in the recent abuse scandals, not that some unnacceptable complicity has occurred from the hierarchy. But the media is side-stepping the psychological relationship of male pedophilia and homosexuality, which is more than amptly documented in psychological research, from a wide range of psychologists.

Homosexual acts are obviously sinful, just read Romans1:21-27 along with 1Cor6:9 and just look at how the homosexuals behaved in Genesis(trying to rape angels) My point is, no matter how acceptable homosexuality becomes to society IT WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD. And therfore it should not be accepted by the Church and we should make sure our children are safe from homosexual activity. Through the guidance of the Holy Spirit God will help us. And as for all those gays that struggle with there homosexuality and dont want to give in to it, I pray for them, as for the totally perverse gays I give them over to satan to teach them not to blaspheme.

Seraphim:

I wouldn't give you, or anyone else for that matter "over to Satan", no matter what sin you might be guilty of.

Let's all attend to the beams in our own eyes, rather than become preoccupied with the speck in our neighbor's.

I think everthing that can be said about this topic has been said. That goes for both sides. I think it is high time the list moved on to other topics.

Michael

Moe,

"Name one, from a legitimate source, where a conviction was made in a US court. Moe"

If I'm able to locate the information again I will.

Name one Catholic teaching that supports murder. Name one faithful Catholic who participated in the murder of Matthew Shepherd.

Every devout follower wishes that hypocrisy did not exist. Yet, sadly, to some degree most everyone in the world is a hypocrite. The Christopher's have it right, "If everyone lit just one little candle what a bright world this would be."

If I were physically able to be in all of the places that crime took place I would defend to the death anyone who was being attacked by another. Since I cannot be in the Sudan to defend the helpless Christians; since I wasn't there to personally defend Matthew Shepherd; since I wasn't in Bosnia to defend the Muslims against the Serbs nor in Serbia to defend the Serbs against NATO; since I wasn't in Somalia to defend the helpless against the warlords; and since I'm not in China to defend people's religious and humanitarian rights I do not consider myself an evildoer. Nor does the Church so consider me to be. But if I didn't do what I could wherever I happened to be I would be an evil doer and the Church would confirm that judgment. That is why I have worked with the mentally handicapped both as a volunteer and as a job virtually the entirity of my adult life. It is why I have often stood between arguing combatents and helped them find solutions to their problems. That is why I have worked at various homeless shelters throughout my life. That is why I've helped create means for poor families to get food and jobs in many ways. That is why I helped form a group in our Church to adopt children or to provide foster care and have lobbied our state government for better treatment of children. The Church stands completely with me in this. They do not propose that people ought to be murdered, no matter what their sin. Instead they oppose war, except in the most extreme cases of defense. They oppose execution. They oppose torture. They support life.

I resent the continual implications by homosexual advocates that the Church or I support evil against anyone. I will challenge that assumption every time I see it, because the stated assumption is an attempt to destroy the Church and to deny the truth.

Dan L

[ 06-30-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

Sarum read Timothy1:20

Seraphim

Read MATTHEW 7:1

I appreciate the Administrator's kind words. I would like to make clear my post was not to any aspect of the current scandal within your Church, a topic of which I think we have exhausted here and that most everyone severe and drastic action is needed, but to social responses to people who are gay.

The Catholic Church has claimed a right to comment and be a party to social life. It involvement in our society has been for the most part a great benefit to our American republic.

The Bishop of Wyoming and the pastor the University parish did rightfully speak against the murder of Matthew Shepard. No legitimate Catholic voices approved of it. A number of Catholics, of a particular bent, did stay silent rather than "give aid" to their philosophical enemy. I think they were not the finest examples of the Catholic faith.

Sadly, the Catholic community and the episcopacy is divided on other social responses to gay people, including our right to live as free citizens and our ability to maintain our livilhood.

Certainly, elements within the gay community have returned this disrespect that elements within the Catholic community have made to us. In both cases, a tendency exists to universalize the disrespect.

That is sad as well. Possibly a civil dialogue would benefit both parties, much as it has advanced interfaith relations.

Axios

Brother Axios, there has been a MASSIVE advertising effort here in the metro Washington area by the United Methodist communities which emphasizes the idea of "Open Hearts; Open Minds; Open Doors". It is part of an "affirming" or "reconciling" ministry that invites anyone and everyone to come to pray with the community. No questions asked. Just come in and pray. For those who have been alienated, it is the perfect message.

The Franciscans have been doing something similar, especially for those who were denied Catholic marriage and who consider themselves "outside" the Church. They refer to this as "Come Home" (or something similar) for the alienated. And the reconciliation extends to everybody who has ever felt the need to wear the "Recovering Catholic" T-shirt. The message is simple: "The door is open; please feel free to come in to this Cathoic/legitimate church and pray to God." No questions.

I pray the the Lord God grant His choisest blessings to the sons and daughters of St. Francis as they make the conscious effort to bring EVERYBODY in through the doors of the Gospel. And I offer the same prayer for my Methodist brethren (and others!!) who go out into the by-ways and highways to find the lost souls. GO GET 'EM!!!!!

For those who feel that 'Judgement' of sin is the critical issue, I beg your indulgence. I just want them to love God and love their neighbor as well as they love themselves. Jesus said this was the first and greatest commandment. Who the heck am I (or anybody else) to add a judgemental codicil to the Lord's commandment?

And may the Lord God bless all His gutsy servants who tread where even the angels fear to go to reach out to 'sinners' and proclaim the gospel of "love". "God is love; he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." Sinners are those who reject God as "love"; and who place their own desires above the well-being of other people.

If you live in love, both love of God and love of your neighbor, then you live in God. This is the gospel. It's not a question of rules. It's a question of love in one's heart. Following rules is relatively easy; having a divine mindset of loving God and one's neighbor actually requires effort that many folks find odorous and a burden. But that is the radical nature of the Gospel, the radical nature that requires constant metanoia and constant reflection and prayer. As Christians, we don't just follow rules. We are obligated to constantly assess, pray and beg the insight of the Holy Spirit in order to determine what God actually wills of us at this particular time and particular place and circumstance.

This change in perspective is what drove the Jews nuts, and drove the pagans crazy. In Christ, our relationship with God is NOT dependent upon rules but rather upon our spiritual relationship with God and with our neighbors. No more sacrificial goats. No more ritual formulations. No more 'unkosher' foods. No more "torah" formulations. The "new commandment" is a touchstone of love of God and love of one's neighbor.

Severe Blessings!!!

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Dr John ]

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matthew 23-34)

One can quote the Holy Scriptures to many ends. Most properly, we should remember that our God is both just and merciful. He calls us both to repentance and to embrace His mercy. Those who consider justice to be the only critical issue in reaching out to those involved in wrongdoing are just as wrong as those who only consider God�s mercy to be the critical issue. God does not offer one without the other.

Yuppers, that's a roger.

We are saved both by our faith and our works. It's got to be both (unless, of course, you're of a certain persuasion).

Blessings!

Can we say that the title of this thread is not just?

Axios

Axios,

In what way is it not just? The homosexual activists have been very clear about their approach. What is unjust about it?

Dan Lauffer

[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

It would appear, that in the current climate of political correctness, the only remaining sins are murder (except abortion), and telling a racist joke. Of course I am exagerating, somewhat. But didn't Pius XII talk about the loss of the sense of sin? We see this all around us. Our culture, even leaders in our Church, have their times when they can not call a spade a spade, or a sin a sin. I don't know of any Church doctrines that have changed, or will change. Individualism has become so extreme, that many people look at God's commandments and actually expect God to make an exception to His laws for them. I don't think God works like that. But it is an example of the old saying that when God wishes to punish someone, He first takes away their mind. As for the openness of the Methodists, there is the old question about how many Methodists does it take to change a light bulb? The answer is, that the Methodists don't want to take sides on this issue and consider all forms of light, whether incandescent, fluorescent, or halogen to be equally valid paths to illumination. A light bulb service will be held at the end of the month when participants can bring the bulb of their choice and have their selection affirmed by the rest of the congregation. I'm just kidding But openness can be carried to such an extreme that it becomes a lack of discernment.