www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall How the homosexual activist movement has targeted America's children

"Last Saturday my mother died in part because she tried to drown her depression in alcohol. The booze was a soothing balm to her but it shut her off from others. It was not until she nearly killed herself three times and we children had to put her in a nursing home in 1998 that she finally stopped drinking. She then surrendered to God through patient counsel and prayer. Sadly, the years of drinking had taken their toll and she after a series of strokes and a massive heart attack, died."

Dear Dan,

Please accept my sympathy for your loss and for the suffering which you describe in this part of your posting. The loss of mother is a turning point in life.

May the Lord grant her joy in His Presence. May he sustain you and your family in your time of sorrow.

May you feel the lifting up of you and yours by us.

Requiecat in pace!

Steve

Dear Dan,

Please accept my condolences on the passing of your mother. May Christ, risen from the dead, receive her into eternal life.

Thank you, dear brothers. As I spoke at my mother's funeral I began by saying that it was a message I had been preparing for most of my life. Living with an alcoholic parent is not easy but to understand that alcohol was to her an attempt at medication puts it into a "theological" perspective. The medicine she applied could not heal her soul. But the medicine she finally received did. Isn't that an Eastern perspective?

I agree with Father Elias. I'd just as soon not be called names.

Dan Lauffer

I would agree that there is no organized body known as the "Political Correctness Society." I define political correctness as good intentions taken to a laughable extreme. Some of you guys need to lighten-up a bit. You are losing your sense of humor I would agree that the Church has re-examined some issues and clarified earlier theology. But I don't expect the Church to ever change its mind on sex between members of the same sex. Yes, we should do all we can to alleviate suffering and to make the world a better place by sharing Christ's love with others. But sin has made the world corrupt and nothing we do will ever make the world perfectly just, perfectly compassionate, or perfectly fair. No one deserves to be discriminated against. But that doesn't mean condoning all their actions. Christ never hesitated in calling sin exactly what it was - sin. I believe we have an obligation to do the same.

Dan:
Sorry to hear about your mother. Losing a parent is a terrible thing. I know from experience that nothing anyone says, no matter how well-intentioned, can take the away the pain. But my prayers are with you and are being offered for your mother.
Charles

Dan, I am very sorry to hear of your mother's passing. Having lost my dad, and with my mother coming near death several times after her stroke, I know the experience. Please be assured of my prayers for your mother's soul, and especially for the strength of your family as you all deal with this loss. I also understand the alcohol issue. My dad, God rest him, was a heavy drinker and smoker and suffered two heart attacks before God called him home. I know intimately whereof you speak.

We humans oftentimes make bad choices, both for our spiritual and physical health. And we (and our families and loved ones) also live with the consequences. It is oftentimes very difficult for us to understand what drives people to what seems like self-destructive behavior. But it is our love and attempts at understanding that can help salve the pain of loss.

Apropos the person who died of AIDS, I also have seen such behavior. "Memorials" that focus on anything but the spiritual and true human values of a person. I've been to a lot of them since I have done a lot of AIDS education and been very involved with the whole spectrum of AIDS patients.

The fact is (and I'll get in trouble for saying this): most people are stupid and have no interest in anything beyond the material world of money, possessions and physical attributes. It's money, cars, DVDs, computer equipment, clothes, etc. Spirituality and non-material values have no place in their minds. Clearly, our work as Christians is cut out for us. We need to ask the 'right questions' and help people find answers that are consonant with the Gospel. And this applies to everyone whom we encounter.

Blessings to you and to your family. May you all find peace.

Dr. John and ByzanTN, you speak much wisdom and comfort here. Thank you.

Dan Lauffer

ByanTN,

Thank you. That was a very good post. Yes, little quips about good intentions taken too far can be helpful correctives every now and then. So long as we can keep it from escalating into "culture wars" we are okay.

You are right that the Catholic Church has re-examined its theology and, more importantly, its psyhcological assumptions as to homosexuality and both improved its wisdom and, in the Church's own words, admitted "their is much in this we do not understand".

I have never initiated nor participated in any discussion here as to the morality of homosexual acts and don't feel it would be soemthing that benefits this forum.

I appreciate your declaration that nobody derserves to be discriminated against. I too hope for the day when those of us who are gay need not fear loss of employment, loss of freedom, loss of housing, etc.

Axios

To Dan,

I too want to join with those expressing their sympathy for the loss of yoru mother. All human life is precious. I will remember her at Liturgy this Sunday.

Dear Dan,

With sincere sympathy at the loss of your mother. May God grant her a place of rest and repose, where there is no pain sickness sorrow or mourning! May her memory be eternal!

Elias

The choice to engage in homosexual sex is ALWAYS destructive behavior. Not just "seems like". This is why we need to teach those who are homosexual that their choice to engage in homosexual sex is always a wrong one and that such relationships are sinful. Welcoming people into the church and being nice to them without showing judgementalism is important. But we do no favors by pretending that their sexual activity is acceptable when clearly the church teaches that it is not.

Well, you are entitled to your view. But this description of gay relationships as ALWAYS destructive behavior does not really live up to the reality of the loving relationships I have seen in my life, lived by gay men and women. Yes, there are those in the "scene" that do live those kind of behaviors, but there are MANY Christian Gay men and women who live good lives and live in longstanding committed relationships. I don't think that their experience can be just discounted lightly. There is theory and there is reality. I think, respectfully, that Church leaders will have to face up to that reality soon.

Brian,

How do you propose that the Church deny Her consistent traditions? Must She cease to be the Church?

Dan Lauffer

Brian,

I am not posting my opinion on the matter. The following is the OFFICIAL teaching of the CATHOLIC CHURCH. You are the one who whose opinion is different and in error.

From the CATHOLIC CATECHISM:

2357. "Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents HOMOSEXUAL acts as acts of grave depravity,[Cf. Gen 191-29 ; Rom 124-27 ; 1 Cor 6:10 ; 1 Tim 1:10 .] tradition has always declared that 'HOMOSEXUAL acts are intrinsically disordered.'[CDF, Persona humana 8.] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved."

2358. "The number of men and women who have deep-seated HOMOSEXUAL tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their HOMOSEXUAL condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. "

2359. "HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS ARE CALLED TO CHASTITY. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. "

Using Brian's reasoning a heterosexual couple living together and engaging in sexual intercourse need not get married and can dismiss Sacramental Marriage because they "live good lives and live in longstanding committed relationships". Married men or woman committing adultery on the side need not worry about sinning as long as they "live good lives and live in longstanding committed relationships".

Brian, how do you define "good"?

Can one worship other gods besides God as long as one is good?
Can one take the name of the Lord in vain as long as one is good?
Can one totally disregard the Sabbath as long as one is good?
Can one dishonor one's parents as long as one is good?
Can one commit murder as long as one is really a good person?
Can one have any type of sex so long as one is really a good person?
Can one steal anything and everything as long as one is really a good person?
Can one covet so long as he is good?

Do you believe in any of the teaching of Christ and His Church? Or are they unimportant to you?

Or do you side with Moe and Dr. John that there is no such thing as sin as long as you love God and your neighbor?

I pray that you will accept the teaching of the church and witness to your homosexual friends the sinfulness of homosexual sex. If you don't you will be asked by Christ on Judgement Day why you denied His teaching.

Steve

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve D.:
[QB]Brian,

".

Brian, how do you define "good"?

Can one worship other gods besides God as long as one is good?
Can one take the name of the Lord in vain as long as one is good?
Can one totally disregard the Sabbath as long as one is good?
Can one dishonor one's parents as long as one is good?
Can one commit murder as long as one is really a good person?
Can one have any type of sex so long as one is really a good person?
Can one steal anything and everything as long as one is really a good person?
Can one covet so long as he is good?

Do you believe in any of the teaching of Christ and His Church? Or are they unimportant to you?

Or do you side with Moe and Dr. John that there is no such thing as sin as long as you love God and your neighbor?


I'm sorry. I think you are setting up a straw man argument here that is pretty deceptive. i think you should ask moe or Dr JOhn on their views and reasoning before you characterize them.
I do see in your posts and in those of Dan, the whiff of the Witch hunter which is really something I cannot empathize with. It is not the Spirit of the Catholicism in which I was brought up and those of my parents and grandparents in that Faith. I think those who truly know gay couples and the reality of their lives tend to see that however lovely the "theory" of what the Church teaches in this matter, it is contradicted by the lives lived in reality.
I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Brian,

You set up the possibility that the Church would soon change. If you wish not to answer the question as to how, that is your privilege, but it is not appropriate to set up a possibility and then dismiss the practical question with a "I guess we must agree to disagree."

Please, don't be glib.

Dan Lauffer