www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Ask a Dhimmi if Islam is benign

It is a very 'cool' ramble, none the less, Gaudior!

In Christ,
Alice

I enjoyed the "ramble" and am in complete agreement with it. I don't try to second guess God. I frequently don't understand what he does or why he does it, and he doesn't owe me any explanations, either. God is so far above me, I can barely even comprehend him. Yet, he loves me - ME, a nobody. Isn't it amazing?

I am a liberal? Oh brother... :rolleyes:
I really can't see the point in discussing this further with someone who creates an imaginary adversary and then attacks him; this is pretty basic theology. Anthropomorphism is necessary for God to communicate with us and to reveal Himself but only goes so far. I suppose you think God is a big bird because Scripture tells us that "under His wings you will find refuge"....
The Fathers were well versed in philosophy; they were not fundamentalists, you know.
This anti-Muslim stuff reads to me like liberals who blamed Christianity when abortionists were being killed a few years ago by misguided zealots...
And Byz: if you think you "can barely even comprehend" God you are mistaken. You CANNOT comprehend Him! At all! He is incomprehensible Mystery! Amen.

Iconophile, a thought...

We are not, per se, anti-MUSLIM. Muslims are PEOPLE. To hate any ethnic or religious group would be most un-Christian.

What we are saying, though, is that ISLAM, the system of belief under which Muslims live, is WRONG. And HARMFUL. It is these things, and causes enormous problems even among its adherants (men v. women, sect v. sect) and allows for and encourages "resolution" of these problems through violence. Many MUSLIMS are calm, peaceful, rathional beings. This does not mean that they are correct, or that ISLAM is less wrong.

Gaudior, who takes leave to point out that it is wrong to hate any man

Are you saying I just imagined God and that he is not really there??? I think the fumes from the icon paint have finally gotten to you. BTW, I never said you were a liberal. Some of the positions you take make you seem to come across that way in print. Perhaps not in person, but we all know the deficiencies of print as opposed to personal communication. I think your reply is mixing several threads with different subjects that didn't have that much in common - the Muslims, God's "anger" which we don't really understand (or at least, I don't), anthropmorphism. BTW, if God is a big bird, don't stand underneath him.

Just a quick thought. . .

The original issue posted here was concerning a social and religious attitude in the Islamic world. That is, that non-Muslims are not full people in Islamic societies.

Sharon Mech (no offense to you personally) mentioned that McVeigh was "Catholic." While this may have been true, that certainly doesn't mean that this is a trend in Catholic society and is similar to these Islamic actions.

But to play a bit of devil's advocate, and those who know me know that I am no apologist for Islam, my grandmother was not allowed to testify against white people until 1980 (nor was my mother, my brother or I - no matter how "white" we are or what "percentage of blood" we carry - because we were registered with the BIA). This was a fairly common law in the states, although I'm not certain about Canada.

Does this law accurately reflect American and, supposedly, Christian values? If it does not, then what about "backwards" countries? If it took the states until the end of the 20th Century to remove some of these oppressive laws, why expect so much more from less developed nations? Are these really prejudices inherent in Islam, or are these merely results of less developed and unenlightened societies?

I know how I'd respond to that, but I'm curious to see what others think.

I really don't know. I do realize that native peoples and blacks were considered not fully human by the culture. In some places, it seems like the Church actually tried to protect them from the government. Perhaps, with time, things will be different in Islamic countries. It's regretable that many have been discriminated against in this country. I think that is finally changing. A question I have is whether any of us Christians would have any rights if Islam were the majority religion in the United States? Do we need to make a distinction between cultural discrimination and religious discrimination?

Byz- thanks for the humorous response; maybe there is hope for our conversation after all. Actually liberals [real ones] think I am a reactionary and reactionaries think I'm a liberal. Either I am doing something very right or very wrong. Actually if I had to describe myself I'd say I am a Catholic radical; deeply traditional and at the same time attuned to the development of Catholic thought.
I grant that the conversation has wandered as it often has.
I am not saying God is something you imagine, only that whatever we "know" about him is nothing compared to what we don't know. That is basic apophatic theology.
The mental gymnastics to show how God can command the annihilation of women and children, which the Old Testament appears to say, only prove to me that my "I don't know" is the only good response to the dilemma.
And as for Islam, I readily grant the historical problems, but note that violence has been common in Christian history. Even in our own day the Ku Klux Klan, the Lebanese militias, the Iron Guard, the abortionist killers, etc. have used violence in the name of Christ. How much harder it is for Islam to overcome its violent past, when even the founder used violence. I do think there is the possibility that Islam may evolve. Certainly the vast majority of Muslims do not approve of the Jihadists. I fear that the USA has contributed to the growth of the violent interpretation of Islam and made the task of the moderates more difficult. And as I said on another thread, when we speak in generalities about Muslims we do the same.

I am basically in agreement with what you have said. There is a lot I will never understand about God, and also this world. I can comprehend that God exists, but not much more than that. I certainly don't know how he thinks, or why he decides to to things one way as opposed to another. I think I remember saying in another thread that the United States blunders into situations it doesn't understand and often makes them worse. Some days I just turn off the news and don't watch because I don't want to know anything else. I do not want to wipe out the Muslims, either. But I think we are in the position of needing to protect ourselves from the radicals. I think the Muslim majority is finally waking up to the fact that the extremists are also a threat to other Muslims.

Hey Byz [do you have a name? Or did your parents actually name you "ByzanTN"?]-
This is refreshing; we actually worked throuogh our disagreements to come to a place of common ground. That is pretty rare in my experience on the Forum. Now I feel that all our head-butting was worth it!
But Gaudior- I'm afraid Muslims would not be too impressed by your claim that you are not anti-Muslim. It reminds me of Protestants who say "I'm not against Catholics! I love Catholics! I love them so much I want to save them from that wicked religious system that they think is good."
I think this is fundamentally what I have a problem with in these conversations; I am always thinking "What would a Muslim think?" We should desire not to be a stumbling block to anyone.
-Daniel

I just had my first visit with my new Doctor. He is Egyptian. His lobby has several wonderful Coptic Icons and many gracious Christian blessings. I really looked forward to talking with him and wondered if Iconophile's, and Moe's version of living under Muslim world was accurate or the one I was pretty sure was true.

After a bit of hesitancy he shared many things with me. I suspect his hestitancy came as an after effect of his benevolent treatment by his fellow Muslim countrymen.

As a young man he was regularly beaten by his Godly Muslim neighbors.

While in medical school he and the few other Christians who made it there had to sit coward in every room while his gentle Muslim fellow students with fists in the air cried out "Not East not West but Muslim everywhere". This they shouted for all to hear and to make clear that if one wasn't Muslim they were less than second class. He was often beaten in medical school as well.

He asked some Muslim friends if the Qur'an offered any hope for them here. They had no answer. Indeed they wouldn't. By and large the goverment is corrupt and because of that the students if educated had little hope for prosperity in this life. So they turn to the promise of Virgins in Paradise for killing Westerners and Jews.

Anwar Sadat, whom many of us hail as a great hero, was among the worst persecutors of Christians. Patriarch Shunudda was held under house arrest during Sadat's term. "Why", I asked, "did the Muslim radicals kill him?" Dr. answered, "He was in the way. The radicals wanted to rule."

Churches were and are regularly defiled. Christians have no legal rights against a Muslim.

No, no, no. We have every reason to distrust Muslims. We must offer them forgiveness about which they know very little. But I will not let down my guard.

Dan L

What can you tell me about the suffering Christians in Egypt? What are we doing to help them?

Dan L

How can we regard Islam with anything but trepidation,when virtually every country in the world with a Moslem majority practices some form of persecution or discrimination against Christians and those of other religions. This is something that those 99.9 pct of Moslems we keep hearing about, who reject terrorism, have no difficulty living with.

BTW My new Doctor will be a guest lecturer at my Comparative Religion classes this fall.

Dan L

In truth Islamic states have varied widely in their treatment of religious minorities; some Orthodox writers insist that Orthodoxy [and Judaism] fared better under Islamic rule than Catholic. Islam was historically the bearer of a high civilization but the current Islamist movement is of course intolerant and primitive in outlook. It would be like at some point the orneriest fundamentalism became the fastest growing movement in Christianity.
Anecdotal stories from Jews about life in Catholic and Orthodox societies would rival your Coptic friend's tale. Indeed, many Jews feel about Christianity the way you do about Islam. My point is not to defend the Jihadists but to point out that Islam is not univocal, and we ought to take care not to offend Muslims of good will, which is counterproductive.