www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Anglican Orders and Apostolic Succession

Why are Anglican orders invalid and has the Anglican Church lost apostolic succession?

Thanks.

Paul

Dear Paul,

When the Anglican and Catholic ecumenical commission held a meeting here in Toronto some years back, the press covering the event said it was due to changes in the Anglican ordinal that removed certain terms necessary for valid ordination.

It was suggested that if the Anglicans put the terminology back in, Rome would recognize their Orders.

I'm confused what this means, however. If for years they have had invalid orders because of the change in the ordinal, how does restoring the ordinal to its original form validate orders, if there are no validly ordained Anglican bishops?

Also, some have said that Anglicans have gone into Russia and obtained valid orders through the Orthodox Church on the basis of economia - don't know anything about that.

Also, that Assyrian bishops assist at Anglican consecrations and so pass on Apostolic Succession in that way . . .

?

Alex

That is my understanding as well, i.e. that the Edwardian(?) Ordinal changed the form of ordination and therefore rendered Anglican orders invalid. I believe that is essentially what Apostolicae Curae said.

I have heard there was Assyrian paricipation at some point. I haven't heard about Russian bishops, and William Palmers interactions with the church would lead me to believe that is not the case. I have heard about wandering Greek bishops participating for "filthy luchres" sake in ordinations. Based on Orthodox ecclesiology though, these ordinations would not be valid even if an Orthodox bishop had participated in them.

The current complicating factor in the validity/invalidity of Anglican orders now I believe is really due to Old Catholic bishops taking part in Anglican ordinations, i.e the "Dutch Touch". I thought I heard that one former Anglican bishop was received by conditional ordination (not outright) because there was prudent doubt (I believe that's the term) that his orders were invalid.

Please anyone correct what I may be misrepresenting.

There have been some Anglican Priests who have gone to Old Catholic Bishops and have been ordained. The Old Catholic Church split off from Rome after Vatican I. However those who had done that have been few, as I understand. However it brings up the question that why would a man who believed his Church to have a valid priesthood, but then go outside to make sure his orders were valid?

On changing the ordinal, just changing the rite of ordination won't make the orders valid, They would have to change the language in the ordinal and then they would have to find a valid bishop who then would have to re-ordain every bishop and priest who hadn't gone outside Anglicanism to have their orders validated.

This then brings up the issue of invalid sacraments being dispensed by those with invalid orders. Centuries of Confessions, Eucharist, Confirmation, Holy Orders, and Anointing of the Sick which require valid orders. I am thinking about the scandal to those who believed that their priesthood was a valid priesthood. Given this, and the propensity of man to simply wallow in the sin of Pride, it won't happen.

Now on the Issue of Russia, I really don't see any Orthodox Bishop ordaining someone from outside the church. To me it seems inconceivable to me that they would do this. The Old Catholic Church however has traveled down wacky street so ordaining someone from the outside isn't out of their scope.

Dear Friend,

Well, did not Bulgakov once recommend to the Protestant churches that they receive the seven Sacraments and valid orders from Orthodoxy on the principle of "economia?"

What was that about?

Alex

In 1998 Cardinal Ratzinger stated that Pope Leo XIII's letter Apostolicae Curae, which declared Anglican orders to be null and void, is a decree of the Magisterium that requires definitive assent. [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, CDF Official Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei, no. 11]

Alex,

I will admit to very little knowledge of Bulgakov. I will take up some reading when I can find some time and look into it.

From my reading and research on orders in the C of E, the outside connection that I was able to find was the Old Catholic Church.

Which brings this conversation to a whole different level... I simply can't bend my mind around a bishop that would simply hand out orders. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, seeing some of the men who have been ordained in the RC diocese that I live in.

As always Alex, when I read your posts, I learn a bit more.

John

Dear John,

And I learn from you, Sir!

I used to live near an Anglican bishop who was quite serious that he had valid Apostolic Orders from the Assyrians and Old Catholics (both of whom were present as co-consecrators of him).

A high church Lutheran also told me that there is a Lutheran group of ministers who also promote themselves as having valid Orders and the way they do this is by regularly having Old Catholic bishops consecrate their bishops . . .

It seems to me that both Anglican and Lutheran churches have members who seem to be saying:

We are Anglicans/Lutherans, our original founding fathers had valid Orders and were "Reformed Catholics," we disagree with the paths our contemporary church leaders are taking us on, but we will fight to maintain the old ways within our churches and when that becomes impossible we'll look elsewhere (to either Rome or Orthodoxy).

The more I spoke with this Lutheran minister, the more I was amazed at just how "Catholic" he was/is.

I couldn't find one point of Catholic doctrine we disagreed on (he prayed the Rosary, believed in the Real Presence etc.). For him, Luther was an imperfect witness to the Church, and definitely not "infallible." He said that even the term "Lutheran" contradicted Luther's wishes and that Lutherans should really call themselves "Evangelical Catholics."

And certainly, there are RC's who become Old Catholics and married Old Catholic priests. They seem to have little trouble returning to the RC church where their Orders also seem to be recognized automatically and they become RC pastors!
Alex