www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why does President Bush not attend Church on Sunday?

Carson,

Thanks for your post. I don't know if I mentioned it, but my grandfather's family on my father's side were all Methodists. We used to spend Eastern Sunday morning each year at my great-grandmother's church. She was also a member of Eastern Star, which I believe is fairly prominent (or was at one time) in the Methodist church.

If I had the choice of any Protestant denomination to join, it would be Methodism (in its "high church" form, if that exists anywhere) solely on the basis of my admiration for John Wesley. Louis Bouyer also had a high regard for Wesley in his writings on the History of Christian Spirituality. I admire Methodism for its kerygmatic and charismatic roots coupled with an abiding concern for the poor and needy. I am sure it is much easier to romanticize about it from the outside, the writings of Wesley and from my childhood memories RATHER than having gone through the challenges you did.

Gordo

The first century of Methodism both here and in the UK is a magnificent legacy. I believe a couple of problems existed in this country fairly early on which eventually ended the "golden age" of that denomination. First, Methodism was essentially a lay movement which garnered its full authenticity from it insistence that members attend the Eucharist at the Church of England. There were no Anglican clerics in the American colonies so immediately a break with that tradition was inevitable. Wesley tried to fix the problem by ordaining two lay ministers himself. Tha Anglicans had little use for Wesley's movement so he had little choice. Thomas Coke and William Asbury were the first two Methodist ordained clergy. After a short stay here Coke returned to England but Asbury stayed on and on December 24, 1784 became the first Methodist Episcopal Bishop. Now that really was a radical redefinition of Apostolic Succession! Many Methodist today argue that the ordination by Wesley of these two was his most glaring error in an otherwise sterling career. Methodism should have forever remained a lay movement attaching itself to an established Church as time went by. But there were scant choices then. So who's to judge.

The second sad event was the almost inevitable demise of the "Class Meetings", The Class meeting was Wesley's crown jewel. They really did promote holiness in millions of people. I would that they would never have ceased to exist but by the civil war or shortly after they were on their death beds. They continued in the form of what came to be called "Quarterly Meetings" but more and more they survived as administrative tools rather than meetings that help form people into the image of God. By the early twentienth century the Class meeting had all but been forgotten.

Methodism continued to be something of a force to reckon with for a time but by post WWII they were simply just another dead and dying mainline Protestant carcus.

To give them their due...I don't think any movement Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox has come close to having the impact for good in American history that Methodism had. This is only an observation by a historian and sadly not much of a participant but not much is really happening in Christianity in America compared with what Methodism offered in the nineteenth century.


CDL

Zenovia,

"As for John Wesley, I recall listening to a priest on EWTN read some of his hymns. He ended it with one that was basically about the Eucharist and it sounded very much like the Body and Blood of our Lord."

Do you recall the hymn? Most of the Methodist hymns were written by John's brother, Charles. He wrote over 6,000 hymns during his lifetime which continue to be included among my favorites. Charles was a "higher" Church Anglican than was his brother so it is not surprising that this priest noted a higher Christology in his hymns. At any rate the Revivalist movements that swept America in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries ll but buried the high Christology of Charles. It is sad.

CDL

Carson,

Thank you for that very informative overview. Alas, the tension and false dichotomy between the "charismatic" and "institutional" nature of the Church has been playing out for centuries. It is unfortunate that such an evangelical movement could not have been reconcilied with Anglicanism.

If I can ask, what was the principal bone of contention between Wesley and the Anglican hierarchs? Prior to his deliverance from scrupulosity and his conversion, I know he was a priest of the Church of England. Was it primarily an issue of class differences that evolved into a schism?

I have also been told that Wesley's capitulation on baptismal regeneration was in part due to the controversy with the Anglican hierarchs. Do you believe that to be the case?

Sorry for the questions. I'm curious about your perspective.

Gordo

I think that it is more accurate to say that our esteemed Governor Jeb Bush is a Roman Catholic. The "by marriage" reference is inaccurate as one cannot become "Catholic by marriage". One can, and many do, convert to Catholicism. But one does not become Catholic by marrying a Catholic.

Governor Jeb Bush is a practicing Catholic and a member of the Knights of Columbus.

So while he may be a convert to the Catholic faith he is not "Catholic by marriage" (which by the way seems to imply that he is not "really" Catholic but only married to a Catholic).

Carole

The main problem the Anglican's had with Wesley had to do with "Class". The Church of England had become pretty much controlled by the merchant class. Priests were frequently absentee landlords not unlike what kept happening on the continent. The vast majority of people in England could simply not afford to be part of the Church and for that matter the average parish couldn't care less about them. It was customary to purchase ones pews and those pews were placed in prominent places in the Church. (Too bad they didn't all just stand.) Wesley would preach wherever he could get a crowd up. Whether it was on the street, or in someones house, or in someone's barn, or even in a field, coal mine, or prison, he would preach. Because of his unconventional approach the typical priest and bishop would not let him into a conventional pulpit. His actions were seen to be unseemly. I guess that is why I never scoff at a street preacher. I usually listen for a bit and often give them offerings. Sadly, I haven't seen one in some time. We tend to domesticate everything in this country. Yech!!

I really don't know about the baptismal question. You must remember that because of my own background I have always come to the Church from a very low Church position. As I moved along the path of holiness I have moved more and more towards where I am.

It is a shame that "charisma" and "institution" so often are at loggerheads. There is a phrase used to described one of the problems with organized religion. It is "the routinization of Charisma". It's the ecclesiastical equivalent of the Peter principle. "One tends to rise to ones level of incompetence and there remain."

CDL

Unless the "institution" itself is regarded as an ecclesia or "assembly" of Christians animated by the charisms - each celebrating the Eucharistic action according to his own respective ordo...the ordo of bishop/overseer, presbyter, deacon and laos. In this context, the sacra potestas granted to the leadership of the ecclesia should be seen as rendering visible in an iconographical manner the Person of Jesus Christ who sends forth the Spirit to coordinate, guide and animate the charisms that build up in a unified way the common life and mission of the ecclesia. The division between the charismatic and the insitutional is thus always a false dichotomy, usually as a result of misunderstanding the role of each ordo in the context of the whole assembly.

You've made me dizzy. All I know for sure is that we have a whole lot of uncharismatic "leaders" filling up alot of space. Maybe in God's time He'll zap um into life.

CDL

Sorry! Let me be clearer...

The Church is Eucharistic in its structure, with each ordo having its place in the assembly (ecclesia). This Eucharistic pattern provides the model for the relationship and essential collaboration between the hierarchical/institutional ordo and the ordo of the laity when it comes to the mission and common life of the church. All ordos have particular charisms to be exercised. Where conflict occurs is when one ordo either diminishes or overstates its importance in deference to or at the expense of another. (Presbyter vs. Deacon, Laypeople vs. Bishop) The Eucharist is thus the pattern and source for building the mission and common life of the church, where the "institutional" and "charismatic" are not in conflict. The bishop in his role of "overseer" is charged with preserving the unity of the church in the exercise of its charisms, poured out upon the whole Church at Pentecost. (Hence Ignatius of Antioch's exhortation to "do nothing apart from the bishop".)

Is that less convoluted?

Gordo

Dear Carole,

Well, I saw the Governor kneel in all piety to Pope Benedict XVI - whoever trained him, did extremely well, I would say!

You are right - but sometimes a good Catholic spouse just does the trick, you know!

I bet you he's still trying to find a "Saint Jeb."

(Do you know what a "Jeb" is? ). I thought it was a boxing term . . .

Alex

Alex,

Is "Jeb" short for "Jebediah"?

Gordo

Dear Gordo,

Do I look like a Southerner?

Alex

I think I understood the theory. But theories must be lived out in real life. Maybe the two years I live in Missouri rubbed off on me.

CDL

It is difficult for Heads of State to attend Church as has been stated above, due to the security that impacts on other Church goers and members of the public.

Your president is often shown on the news in my country as coming out of a church somewhere.

ICXC
NIKA

Gordo,
I'm pretty sure Jeb is short for Jebediah. Not to be confused with Jedidiah, for which the shortened moniker is Jed. Not to be confused with Jedi, the plural of which is also Jedi, as explained in the ancient Lucasite scrolls buried in the ruins of Mos Eisley. OK, 3 weeks till my daughter's wedding and I am already cracking!
Blitheringly,
Michele