www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Islam

In his book, "The Prophet of Doom," Craig Winn does a deep analysis of the Q'uran and earliest books written about Muhammed. He states that the Church cannot counter Islam because Christianity has become too emasculated and divided to be a force.

Is this true? Is Christianity a big pushover, too effeminate?

Is our clergy more worried about liturgical hats and titles not to see the threat?

Joe

Joe

I'd agree with those statements for the present. Catholics have done so much apologizing in the last four decades, that I honestly believe alot of non-Catholics want no part of a church that's "finally getting it right" after 2000 years. Funny how in the times past when we lacked sensitivity and before we recognized the individual person's dignity, how we still packed em into church, confession, various devotions etc. and had more than enough vocations. Islam by contrast comes off sounding sincere, vibrant and uncompromising.

In short: Yeah.

Islam is the world's fastest growing religion and wherever it can it doesnt hesistate to use any means neccessary to spread e.g. Northern Philipines, Sudan, Nigeria. In those 'quiet' corners of the globe where the Western world cannot be bothered to go zealots continue to make 'converts' whilst we sit complacently. Even here in the West Islam is making ground. Its adherents are not afraid to have large families and they actually are evangelising and doing it well. In a post-Christian West left to the vaccuum of secularism Islam offers people unity and security and whilst it may not be popular with the liberal intelligensia the underclass and the ordinaries continue to convert.

The laxity of Christians is one of its worst enemies. Thats not to suggest Muslims are any more devout than committed Christians but they give the appearance of being willing to die for their beliefs. To possess that kind of certainty is appealing to people who live in an uncertain world e.g. After 9/11 conversions to Islam in America went up not down.

Christianity has all the components that Islam has but in general people are not convinced by the witness of Christians. They dont see in us the peace promised by Christ or the love. They dont see the dedication, the unity of faith within denominations nevermind across the denominational lines. Some say this, some say that, some live by the decalogue, others liberalise it, yet they all claim to be Catholic or Protestant or whatever.

Its like with the Albigensian heresy in St Dominic's time. The poor southern French peasants saw these pompous fat richly clad Bishops come to convert them from heresy and they just didnt listen because what they saw was an unconvincing witness. How had their 'beliefs' changed the lives of the Bishops? The Albigenisan leaders fasted and practiced self-flagelation and the Bishops...? The first thing St Dominic of Guzman realised when he got their was that there was no way the common people were going to take note of these men coming in carriages.

Likewise today Christians look complacent. In terms of the Catholic Church: She's in uproar! Seminaries and Catholic schools are teaching all sorts of nonsense. At least three generations have gone without catechesis en general since Vatican II. Camps have formed, magisterial authority has been eroded. The Church gives off the opinion of a ship that looks like its sinking. If you were an outsider what would you think? In many places there are priests either unwilling or unable to give account of Catholic teaching on elemental subjects like the sacraments. As an outsider if you see this what is your opinion going to be? You have people saying one thing e.g. the Creed and then preaching sermons and publishing books in violation of the Creed.

Think back to the conversion stories of some saints we know who weren't Christian and then converted. How did it happen? Often you'll hear they picked up the life story of a saint, or they heard about the courageous witness of a monk, or they passed by a Church and saw the liturgy. The devotion these people witnessed sowed the seeds in their minds but Catholicism gives off the impression of being a religion that is characterised by 'Sunday Christianity' or 'stay at home Christianity'.

A Catholic runs for election in anything and usually the first thing they do is disown their Catholicism. Its like gee, that must be really important. As an outsider you're not usually prone to picking up theological and historical tomes and deciding which religion is true. Most people will never do that in their lives. The vast majority of people are not historical theologians and they have no desire to be. Their first contact with religion comes from the contact they have with the adherents of that religion. Because the Church in the West has become decadent it is destined to be superseded here by Islam.

Unless God raises up saints for us then within 100-150 years Europe will be predominately Muslim and dont expect the Americas to be completely untouched either. Islam sees itself as a world religion--another thing many Christians no longer think Christianity should be for fear of being 'triumphalist'--and it will not stop expanding until it achieves its goal of bringing the Dar-al-harb into the Dar-al-Islam.

Joe, I can't (clearly) speak for the Catholic Church with this statement, BUT...

I think a great deal of the problems in today's society are that we've spent years and years doing a warm, fuzzy, all-forgiving, Jesus loves you message...and very little in the way of teaching our responsibilities as Christians, sinning, and being held to the consequences of that sin unless we are truly repentent.

No, I am NOT advocating "hellfire and brimstone" religion, but I am saying that with VERY few exceptions, we no longer have the consequences of our sins in front of us, we no longer (OK, well, some of us do) have elders who will tell us that while they are aware that we are repentent, we still are not going to be permitted to approach the Chalice for some length of time in order to drive home to us the severity of what we have done.

We need some personal accountability in the Churches, as outsiders, especially from Islam, which holds as truth that even if you repent, you must still be punished to be purified, are laughing and looking down, and despising the "weakness" that lets people think whatever they please, and teaches Christianity by means of cute, talking plush vegetables.

Gaudior, who doesn't wonder that this view of Christianity is looked on as feminine

Oh no Gaudior its not feminine. Thats an insult to women. Its subhuman. To behave in accordance only with one's impulses, which is what sin is in short e.g. I feel like doing it so I will, is just animalistic.

Nobody's mother however fuzzy allows their child to play with knives or to run across the road. On the contrary the more loving she is the more likely she is to give the child a smack for risking its life that way. But for a culture that sees love in consumerist terms e.g. how much do I enjoy it and if I dont enjoy it leave it that message just aint getting through.

Myles, who knows that our friend Gaudior did not mean that Christianity is effeminate in the true sense of the word after the model of the Most Holy Theotokos but in the vein of the the banalised version of feminity popularised by the whore of Babylon.

Myles:

Can you elaborate on this statement? We might have missed some developments in these countries.

Amado

The Nigerian and Northern Philipino circumstances are similar in that you have large areas of the country that are predominately Muslim wherein it doesnt take much for a few individuals to whip up fervour against the Christians. However, to my understanding in the Northern Philipines the violence is more co-ordinated by guerrillas than the Nigerian rioting. However, I have a friend who used to work in the Nigerian civil service and he assures me that the tensions remain rocket high and that there is still a large segment of the nigerian populous committed to the expansion of Islam even if it means using force. The Sudanese situation is probably the most documented civil war against the Shariah in modern times. Not too long ago I saw on the bbc that there are still violations of the cease fire in numerous areas although it doesnt appear that a renewed round of co-ordinated attacks has begun.

Myles:

As far as the Philippines is concerned, only approximately 5% of the 88 million total population are Muslim (between 4 and 5 million)and most of them are confined in the Southwestern Provinces of Southern Philippines. Even then, in Mindanao, which is the "Southern Philippines," there are many, many more non-Muslims (mostly Catholics) than Muslims.

The Philippines is about 82% Catholic, or approximatley 72 million Filipinos are Catholic.

Those Muslims who are in "Northern Phillippines (the Island of Luzon) are mostly students, with a growing number of refugees from the South due to the off and on war (for almost 400 years now) between government forces and secessionist movements like the Moro National Liberation Front (MNLF), the Moro Islamic Liberation Front, the Bangsa Moro Army (BSA), and, recently, the al-Qaeda affiliated Abu Sayyaf. But these "groups" are confined in the Southwest portion of Mindanao.

I have not heard Muslim guerillas freely roaming in Northern Philippines. If there are, it would be surprising, to say the least.

But there are small bands of guerillas, like the New People's Army, sponsored by the leftist political parties, foremost of which is the Communist Party of the Philippines, which has gained notoriety after the lifting of martial law in the 80s.

Amado

I believe some of the more recent demands of Abu Sayyaf and the Moro Liberation Front is that be given the Southwestern third of Mindanao including Zamboanga, which is only about 20 pct Moslem. Obviously those are only there initial demands.

Here's a rather interesting article on the history of Islamic extremism in the Philippines http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/search/LessonsLearned/philippines/bearers.asp

And incidently, a Filipino co-worker told me back in the 1990's that the Juramentados still exist.