www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Where does responsibility lie?

Moe,

Allergic? Hmmmmm. How can one man (or woman) be solely responsible for the actions of a few loose cannons? I believe that President Bush never promoted such behavior. If he did, I am unaware of it. Maybe you are aware of a speech that he gave on abusing prisoners?

When female military officers were being sexually harassed by male officers during the Clinton era, nobody begged President Clinton to apologize. In fact, it was very strange how many of the feminists were dead silent when Clinton was enjoying his female WH aides in unbecoming ways. They are still silent regarding how FEMALE soldiers can be just as cruel as males. Will such attention blow the cover off the 'sugar and spice' myth?

Joe

Every opinion poll I've recently seen, indicates that a majority of Iraqis want the troops out of their country, yet the Bush administation still insists that we'll be their for awhile yet. In addition, the recent admission that the new Iraqi government will be virtually powerless, does not speak well for America's commitment to democracy in Iraq.

Whether one considers the troops an army of occupation, or peacekeepers, history clearly shows that the longer soldiers remain in a foreign country the more unpopular they become. Already some polls are indicating that more than a third of Iraqis think life was better under Saddam Hussein. Beating out one of the world's worst mass murderers of recent times by less than a two thirds majority does not sound very promising for the future. However, I think the troops will only be withdrawn when a sizeable majority of the American public becomes sick of the war.

As for the horrific actions of the military men and women towards the Iraqi prisoners, I wonder, doesn't anyone adhere to the 'you are the only one responsible for your own actions' school anymore? ...That was the school of thought that existed before the 'me' (my) generation onward conveniently decided that every thing in the world, including the decision to smoke, could be blamed on someone else?

If I have no conscience about harming or grossly humiliating another person, whether I have decided to go along with a crowd, or decided to perpetrate that harm and humiliation myself, can I blame it on the President?

As Christians, I rebuke all into remembering that the conscience, and the ethical and moral integrity of knowing what is right and wrong that lies as the foundation of the conscience, is of supreme, supreme importance. Without it, we are not only uncivilized human beings, but we are sinners of the worst kind...the kind that has no remorse.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Joe,

Without being partisan, I commend you on the point which I have also made on occasion about President Clinton abusing women's rights IN THE WORKPLACE by having illicit sexual activity in his office with an employee. Where were the women's rights activists? I didn't hear so much as a whisper from those otherwise very outspoken ladies!!!

All,

I try not to be partisan until voting time. We should support and pray for our leaders, as the litany in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom says...and let's look for good in our leader's difficult decisions, not evil and misguided intentions, simply because they do not espouse the political idealogies we do. I just don't think that the kind of negativity I am hearing on this forum about this President, who at the very least, takes his personal Christianity and family life seriously,( and for that we should rejoice) is very Christian. Sorry!

Disappointed,
but not judging ANYONE,whether President or Poster-- according to our Lord's tenets,
Alice

Joe, they weren't my words, but I do agree with them. Wasn't it Harry Truman who had a sign on his desk that said "the buck stops here"? As commander in chief he is ultimately responsible. Also, the soldiers might think they could get by with anything, following the President's example by declaring an illegal and unethical war on a country that was doing neither us nor our allies any harm. Monkey see, monkey do. Moe

That is because you want him to be ultimately responsible. But why does the military issue court martials to INDIVIDUAL troops for their attrocities and not always the President? This would all be a different story if Clinton was still in office, no? You still didn't answer my questions regarding how Clinton treated/abused women while in the oral office. Wasn't he slick in not being able to define sex? Must not have been in the Geneva Conventions or some other rule book. And no response about the feminists who pick and choose who they will be outspoken against. Its all politics and you really don't have any concern about the victims.

At least they all agreed with Congress, including Kerry et al, to go in that direction. Did you know that John Kerry wrote an article a few years back on how HE would handle Iraq? What our current President did was identical to what he (Kerry) said he would do. Would your opinion be different if Kerry followed through in the same direction of the war effort as did Bush?

Its all about politics with you guys. You really don't care about the victims and their abusers. Its plain and simple: you hate Bush and that is that. ANYTHING that goes wrong will be blamed on him. Obviously, individual and moral culpability doesn't make sense to you nor codes of honor. Its always blame someone else but one's self. Morality only exists when one is angry with another. Otherwise, it is free game.

Joe

All of the photos that I have seen, so far, depict the Iraqi prisoners NOT being tortured but being humiliated. This in the Muslim world may be worse than torture. I think humiliation carries more weight. Either method however, is contrary to American soldier's Code of Conduct.

JoeS

All, and I mean all those who enter the armed services of the United States are indoctrinated in the Code of Conduct. And I place attention on the very last paragraph of the Code below. There is NO excuse for those who perpetrate this sort of punishment on Iraqi prisoners.

The Code of Conduct

I am an American fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

JoeS

The International Red Cross seems think there is more to it than just politics:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...nm/20040507/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_redcross_dc

"Our findings do not allow us to conclude that what we were dealing with at Abu Ghraib were isolated acts of individual members of coalition forces. What we have described is a pattern and a broad system," said Pierre Kraehenbuehl, director of ICRC operations

Christ is Risen!

First off this is a political nightmare for our country. Let us beseech Almighty God that He will protect us from the wrath of radical Islam.
Those photos are *now* propaganda material for youth in Islamic countries et al. This is the beginning of a war that will never end. Muslims, like other oriental and eastern people, do not forget easily; I mean we are still talking about the sack of Constantinople. May God have mercy on us and protect us! We have become so ungodly that our words fall to the ground. The images were categorically oriented to make Muslims perform haram acts, acts forbidden by the Qu'ran and the Sunnah of Muhammad. Images of homosexuality, sodomy, nakedness, abuse...will incure the wrath of the Muslim world. I do not know how anything can be done to check this except to get a new administration; Bush's Administration is the only scapegoat that will have some atoning virtue in this regard. Kyrie Eleison!

In Saint Michael the Archangel,

Robert

Personally, I disagree with the IRC that this treatment is widespread among our military detention centers in Iraq. I think we will find that most of what was going on was isolated in this one of the three prison areas. Not to lessen what went on these past few weeks but does anyone know if the IRC was this concerned about the prisons and prisoners under the Saddam regime? And if so did they try to investigate some of what was going on there?

JoeS :rolleyes:

Many people would say (and rightly so) that these abuses happen everywhere and that we should not make a big scandal of this given the state of our prissons and the police conduct in other countries which is much worse than what the pictures displayed.

However, one thing that I find very shocking about the abuses told by ex-prisoners and the graphical evidences, is the explicit way to attack and target the cultural values and traditions of the Iraqi men, in which they were formed to make them feel humillated and moraly destroyed.

Something which caught my atention is the deliberate presence and sometimes active participation of women in acts of humilliation against Iraqi detainees, the degradation and mockery of the manhood of the detainees by making them perform homosexual and female acts, which is the worst way of destroying the dignity of a man who comes from a Muslim background.

I do not doubt the professional and clean concience of Colin Powell and those who have stated that only a handful of soldiers commited these abuses and that most US soldiers have a high preparation, discipline and patriotic feelings. But in the case of Britain for example, serious studies show that most of its effectives are former street bullies or men with a very violent background. Something similar can be said about the smaller countries participation in the coalition.

Unlike Cuba or Iran or Syria, who are always under international scrutiny and sanction by the international organizations, no one has the power to reprimand or punish Israel or the Iraq Occupation Army for any of this things.

I just saw these pictures today for the first time. I think that the horrible acts perpetrated at the hands of guards is the result of the brutality of war in general, and the experience of combat in particular. War is violent and everyone is effected by this violence. I don't think this excuses anyone's behavior - from the soldier on up. In fact, everyone on up is responsible because they were responsible for the next group on down in the chain of command. I am responsible if my youngest child is hurt while left in the care of her older brother.
Also, Mexican has a great point about the humiliation at the hands of women - I think that people outside of the US will feel like they are justified in thinking that American women lack morals.

Dear LaFamiliaFelix,

I agree with you on how this will reinforce the already tainted view of the West, especially America, having loose morals, and wanting to export them (through popular culture) to the rest of the world.

The interesting thing is that for a brief period of time after 9/11, Hollywood briefly woke up from its self love and immoral fascination, and was contemplating not producing any more movies that impose our sinful cultural norms on society. Ho hum....in the bat of an eyelid, that was forgotten... :rolleyes:

We may be one of the most God believing societies on earth, but one would never know it from our culture...infact, one would presume the exact opposite.

In Christ,
Alice

Perhaps a pilgrimage should be organized to the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility, Lake Woebegone, Minnesota.
Christ is Risen!
Incognitus