www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Are there any Byzantine folks at the Center or Left of Center?

Folks:

I check into this site pretty regularly and frankly do enjoy and learn things from y'all. My impression though is that most folks on this forum see the world pretty much in terms of black and white. In my church, we have websites that are middle way, right of center and left of center. Is there another forum out there that might represent the center or perhaps some who are a bit more liberal?

Please understand that I'm not trying to put anyone down; I'm just interested in knowing whether there is a more liberal thinking group of BZyantine folks out there and where might I find them?


Fr. Mike
Rector, Episcopal Church of the Mediator
Meridian, MS
(Grew up Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic at St. Nicholas Church in Lorain, Ohio).

Where is this "center" that you are seeking? I just try to uphold and practice the teachings of my Byzantine Church. For me, that is the center around which I live and function. I don't even want to discuss political centers, or lefts and rights. I have seen both major parties in the U.S. shift their positions on issues in my own lifetime. The political centers are fluid and moving, depending on what is expedient for the politicians at any given time.

Actually, Fr. Mike, as far as Byzantine forums go this one is "as good as it gets."

I am flat-out certain that the views of politics often expressed on this forum are not the univocal views of all Greek Catholics. What has become all too apparent is that many aggressive posters do not welcome the expression of views other than their own, and are unconcerned that allowing their own rather limited analysis to pass unremarked is to give the impression that you have understandably garnered.

I deeply regret this state of affairs, but apart from registering dissent every now and then, there's not much that I can do about it. What makes it particularly sad is that people who might otherwise contribute happily and significantly to the specific religious content of the forum hesitate to do so because of this dilemma.

Incognitus

I, for one, find a VERY WIDE diversity
of opinion on these Forums. Just a simple,
relatively innocuous question can generate
the FIERCEST of debates...................

antonius

Incognitus,

I keep hearing about the "politicization" of the forum. But I find this perplexing.

Most of the time, anything that is discussed that is political has to do with social and moral issues which - one would hope - has some relationship to faith. I have yet to see a discussion on pure politics.

But isn't the purpose of a forum like this to discuss the relationship between faith and the various aspects of our lives?

My contention is that the moral issues have been politicized since much of morality has been relativized, hence the need to use political power (be it judicial or legislative) to force change in society away from traditional religious values.

One more point: I for one do not like the application of political terminology to matters of faith. I aspire to be neither conservative nor a liberal in my views on maters of faith and morals - only orthodox.

How does that impact my own political views?

I am absolute in my opposition to abortion and euthanasia. But I have changed my views on a liberal application of the death penalty. (thanks to PJPII)

I question the morality of an unbridled captitalism, especially one that is harnessed to the whims of a stock market. I also disagree with anything (social or otherwise) which destroys, discourages or usurps the rightto ownership and personal property. (JPII, Belloc and Chesterton)

The war for me is still an open question. Did it fulfill the requirements of a just war? I'm still assessing that. (Although I have a brother who fought in the Marines and was shot in Iraq on his birthday...so I am not completely objective in this matter.) I cannot and will not be a dove, but I'm no hawk either.

I disagree with governments (especially at the federal level) who create social dependencies and dominate the lives of individuals and families. But I believe in a social safety net - probably when it involves an essential collaboration between state and faith-based initiatives. I also believe in some regulation of business practices...but all of this more at the state and county level, in keeping with the principle of subsidiarity (things are governed best which are governed closest to the governed).

To djs's point in another part of this forum, I agree with protecting the rights of protestors, so long as their protest is within the confines of the law (as opposed to a riot).

On another related point, has anyone had any experience with "Catholic Action"? As I recall, there was a very large movement of "Catholic Action" in the US and Europe. So much so that it was the only specific lay movement mentioned and praised in the conciliar documents. SInce the implementation of the council, however, it is virtually non-existent in the US (in that form). Any sense as to why? I always thought a movement like that was a great way to transcend differences of party and work towards the realization of a unified "City of God."

Sorry for going on so long!

Gordo

Father Mike,

You have abandoned the true faith. I'm certain that you are welcome here to contribute anything you wish. I find your assumption that political stances ought to guide what we discuss to betray a secular stance on your part and has little or nothing to do with True faith.

You are free to ask anything you wish, I suppose, unless the Administrator disagrees, and you are free to hold any political position you want but I find your first post to be insulting. If you weren't clergy I would be more circumspect but I expect more from clergy.

Incognitus,

I find your post wrong headed along the lines that Gordo outlined.

Dan L

Father Mike,

Thank you for your post and for your participation here.

It seems to me that your post highlights one of the major differences between Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) and Protestantism. For us, there is no middle, left of center, or right of center way when discussion issues of faith and morals. There is only one Way. The Church speaks with authority on issues of faith and morals. Unlike Protestantism there is no individual choice on decisions regarding faith and morals where the Church has taught authoritatively. One can study history and see that Catholic theology has matured, building earlier teachings. But you simply don�t see any changes in faith and moral issues (even though you do see the sinful failures of men and women in the Church). For us, the only individual decisions are about how to apply these teachings in our everyday lives. When we willfully and voluntarily reject the teachings of the Church we are guilty of sin. One can find some sites that claim to be Catholic but reject Catholic teachings on faith and morals, but these sites are really not Catholic. And of course well intentioned people do often focus on one aspect of a teaching to the extent of excluding the entire teaching (i.e., focusing on mercy or justice but not a proper balance of both).

Middle, left of center, and right of center opinions do exist and are legitimate, of course, on issues that are not related to faith and morals. Such would include style of liturgy, music, devotion and etc. so long as one�s opinions in these issues don�t reject Church teaching on either faith or morals. Regarding politics (opinions about political systems and governments) there is great freedom so long as one does not adopt positions that reject Church teaching.

Admin

John,

Thank you so much. I wish I had your ability to write with such clarity.

Dan L

Dear Administrator,

Actually, you haven't been to Canada lately, have you?

In fact, our Catholics here are largely liberal (and they vote Liberal too, having confused big "L" with small "l" liberal).

Catholics here are more likely than not to support the principle of secular same-sex marriage and benefits etc. They are more likely to support artificial birth control. If Catholic women in Quebec would stop having abortions, that would really lower the rates up here.

You are absolutely correct - there can be no "middle" or liberal ground on faith and morals.

I just disagree that Catholics (and even Orthodox) are more likely to be "stalwarts" on this than others.

The Episcopal/Anglican church also has its moral/liturgical conservatives.

That Fr. Mike isn't one of them doesn't mean that he represents his entire denomination.

Most of the Anglicans I know would be quite scandalized by what many of their own do.

But, as Fr Mike has said, this doesn't prevent Catholics from joining the Episcopal or Lutheran churches (which are now in full communion with each other, as I understand).

One further point, our liberal Catholics do see their vision of the church as being the "true" and only vision that can be, just as we see otherwise.

The ones I've come across will not be swayed - they are doing their liberalizing work from within the Catholic Church and wait for more "liberal" hierarchical members to come . . . their messiahs . . .

Alex

Well,

My humble asnwer is simple:

Once the truth seemed to have many colors in my eyes till I read this:

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Matthew 12:20

Libiral is just not totally "with," nor is it realy "gathering"

It is, of course, true that virtually any issue involving human beings has moral aspects to it. It is also true that many issues do not have nice, simple answers.

Actually I thought Gordo's post is well-written and considered and pleasant. When people produce more heat than light, I begin to turn my attention elsewhere. When I see indications of real hate, I become frightened - hatred of other people is seldom a force for good.

Gordo - Catholic Action seems to have been gone for several decades; I've not heard of it for a long time. But there are certainly active Catholic organizations with quite a variety of concerns.

Incognitus

Some things may seem black and white without a shade or two or gray, but actually this forum represents a diversity of opinions. When I said above it is "as good as it gets." I meant that..despite apparent difficulties in communication folks here are trying and we are doing something worthwhile in our stumbling.

As for the term "liberal" or even "Liberal" I don't think we can apply that easily here or not apply that here. Like Charles posts above..I just see the Byzantine Church as Church and also my own, which, Alex, I don't see fits the specifications you share about liberal Roman Catholics in Canada, as Church. But then I don't live in Canada. Yes, there is a growing liberalism in the R.C. Church which does concern me..and has for some time, but not to the extent you share.

In a secular society in which some Protestant churches have gone with the flow of a growing trend toward liberalism there are many within the Protestant fold who have not done so either. Usually they are called conservatives...but I don't like either of these labels.

The confusion over the term to me seems to be that in a secular society liberal is equated with open, loving, and free. If we are not liberals in a secular sense are we considered not open, loving, and free? Are we simply B/W as Fr. Mike suggests? I don't think so. Freedom is not license, and there is a framework in which it works best. But I am going on too long here. So...

Here is a poor example but on my heart to share anyway.

Say we see a friend walking towards a cliff. If they are about to fall or jump off that cliff..do we say..okay Brother (or Sister) go ahead and jump, you are free to do that! Is that the loving thing for us to do? Or if there is fog and they do not see the cliff do we who see it simply ignore it. Are we so liberal as to let them or encourage them to freely fall?

Or do we say..don't jump...don't fall..try another path...a narrow one which leads to life?

I thank God for those over the years who have helped to keep me from falling over the cliff and have directed me to the path of life. I guess that means I am not a liberal.

In Christ,

Mary Jo

The Byzantine Forum is very left of center. Just look at the number of posters giving support to the homosexual cause. Why are so many Byzantine Catholics willing to even consider that homosexuality is ok? Morality doesn�t change. It�s too bad that readers of this forum will think Byzantine Catholics have gone the way of liberal Protestants.

Thank God that the people in the parishes are more balanced.

Is there really that many individuals here giving support to the homosexual cause?

Or is it a relatively few who are prolific in their posts, giving an appearance to the casual observer that there is a large number of posters giving support to the homosexual cause?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect its the latter and, if anything, the average poster is reluctant to take those relatively few to task, for fear of being seen as judgemental or intolerant.