www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Anglican Rite Awaits Rome's Approval

The answer varies a lot both historically and from place to place today.

The Anglican Communion is run like the Orthodox churches - there's no Pope (except the one in Rome with whom they're not in communion because of a decision of the English king 572 years ago) and each national church is independent often with its own service book as well as unofficial ones. Unlike the Orthodox there are conservative but liturgical, episcopal Protestants, liberal Protestants (Broad Churchmen, or Modernists) and Evangelical Protestants, all members in good standing along with members with Catholic beliefs.

Among Anglo-Catholics you'll see a range from something resembling the traditional Latin Mass (and in some rare cases it is the TLM!) to the current RC Mass (unofficially widely used in England) or something resembling it. No women clergy.

A typical middle-of-the-road Anglican service is like a modern RC service only with some prayers you may not have heard before, either new ones or taken from the Book of Common Prayer, and without some familiar Roman Catholic ones like 'May the Lord accept this sacrifice at your hands' and 'Lord, I am not worthy'. The priest may or may not wear a chasuble (a nice traditional one made of brocade cloth) but probably wears an alb and stole. And in many middle-of-the-road official Anglican churches, at least in England and America, may be a woman. Overall, though, the service is often more conservative than mainstream RC ones with nice architecture, great choral music (the choir are often in pews facing each other, in front of the altar) and Communion kneeling at an altar rail - but under both kinds. (Sometimes the altar is against the wall too.) You'll find nicely bound hardcover prayer books and hymnals in the pew racks, not newsprint missalettes. The theology may either be conservative but liturgical and episcopal Protestant or liberal Protestant (shading into no longer being Christian!). You may or may not hear thou-and-thee English, the idiom of their old Book of Common Prayer from the 1500s.

In England and Australia you'll come across Evangelical Anglicans, who can be like Presbyterians or even Baptists in their beliefs and practices. Happy-clappy services with praise bands and overhead projectors giving the words to the hymns. Vestments are optional in these places.

It's this, what I would call "creeping low mass effect", that in truth scares me most about ecclesial union of any sort with Rome. Over and above all of the normal complaints Orthodox people have.

Andrew

I'm still recovering from the time, about ten years ago, that an Anglican friend of mine confided, in all seriousness, that he wanted to join the Catholic Church but could not bear the thought of having to give up Solemn Mass! No, he was not joking in the least.

Fr. Serge

Mary,

I would also refer you to the post from 3 October 2006 on this topic from Father Deacon DIAK. His post contains a link with the liturgy on the website.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

Ilian and Fr Serge: yeppers.

That applies only to Anglican and other Protestant converts! :p

Orthodox coming into union with Rome will be "ordered" to keep their liturgical patrimony!

Unless you don't see the various Eastern Catholic liturgies as not Orthodox enough?

Amado

Dr. Eric,

Thank you. & thank you for 'pointing your finger' to the post, on the same page, a few above mine.

I feel a little embarrassed he he

The young fogey,

Thank you for your detailed explanation. Very interesting...

Amado

I'm sure you know I was not being polemical.

The creeping low mass effect to me is alive and well, and it is frightening. This most especially among Eastern Catholics.

Andrew

What Andrew said.

Sorry, that should read 472 years ago.

hmmmmmm I thought that the Anglican Catholic group was doing just that. their Bishops were supposed to be in conversation with Rome to come in as a body. wha' happaned?
Much Love,
Jonn

Well, I'm sorry to bring up this old hash again, but a line regarding Rome not allowing for married priests in any future Anglican community in communion with Rome caught my eye.

WHY are these people so dead set against a married priesthood when they have both the Holy Scriptures and Christian history against them? The Eastern Catholic Church fought (and lost) this battle about a century ago and it was the cause of no small amount of animus in this country. Perhaps someone should remind His Holiness of the name Fr. Alexi Toth!!!

I just don't "get it". If the Latins want to run their rite that way -- fine! But why can't they accept that there are parts of the world which are not specifically Latin and who have their own very valid and appropriate Tradition??

Smells like more Latin triumphalism to me.

And as regarding the quote from the Anglican who didn't want to give up the Solemn Mass and join the Catholic Church --

well, shoot, that guy has more eclessiastic brains in his little finger than 95% of the Catholics sitting in their pews watching their clown "mass".

Kudos to him.

Brother Ed

That's what Rome teaches. But in practice they probably can't. Many Byzantine Catholics don't want that and many RCs don't take this 'order' seriously either. That's reality.

They are but prospects of imminent reunion probably aren't as rosy as those bishops want to think.

Good catch! Points again to the fact that the Anglican Use isn't meant to last - a bait-and-switch.

The Anglicans aren't exactly in the same position as the Ruthenians and other Byzantines. Like the Polish National Catholic Church, also talking to Rome and with married bishops and priests, they can be seen as a sub-group of Latin Catholicism, which of course the English Church was before the 'Reformation'.

The clown-Mass example is much overused - who here's actually seen one? - but, other than that, true.

I noticed this

That strikes me as rather odd (well, actually maybe not). I would think that would be for many traditional Anglicans, to borrow a phrase the kids like, "not cool".

Also, going back to something mentioned a while ago. When asked what he missed about Anglicanism, didn't Cardinal Newman say "evensong". I thought I heard that somewhere.

Andrew

Altar Boy, former Episcopalian ministers are still being considered and accepted into communion as Latin rite priests (married) - and several more are pending. I'm sure some remember Fr. Alvin Kimel who used to post here on the Forum; he is one recent candidate waiting to be accepted as a priest. I don't know where this idea that Rome isn't allowing it is coming from.

If the Latin bishop/archbishop is willing to sponsor and accept them in their diocese, and the background checks are OK, he can make this happen.

The "Pastoral Provision" group has its own website at http://www.pastoralprovision.org
FDD

Since the Sarum Use has never been suppressed, and one can still attend occasional Catholic celebrations of the Sarum Mass in England (where the Society of Saint Osmund is reprinting the books) there is nothing that would prevent - in principle - the formation of parishes desiring the Sarum Use as their regular form of worship.

Fr. Serge