www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall V is for Vicious, Vile and aVoid

Dear Teen you said:

"Freedom of expression and speech should not be hated by Christians. Those sins that arise from people's exercising these God-given rights are deplorable, of course. Duh! We all know this, so let's move past the idea that supporting freedom of speech is supporting every kind of sin this side of Heaven."

I say:

Remember, freedom of speech is what the pornographers insist on. Also, we tend to adapt to the cultural modes around us. In that sense, the Church does have a right to make it's voice heard. Besides, must Christians have no other alternative than to home school their children? I think that's quite unfair.

Dear Theist Gal you said:

"And just a general comment about movies - if you really don't want people to see a movie, the worst thing you can do is publicly protest against it - trust me, I'm livin' proof!"

I say:

Hey I'm old enough to remember when movies were banned in Boston. They were always the ones we went to see.

Zenovia

Dear Spdundas you said:

"My post is VERY generous and charitable compared to what my thoughts are which I won't dare put on the post here...

I say:

I love you!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Christoir you said:

I'd like to add that on average, the Greeks eat 23.8 kg cheese per year while the French consume 23.7 kg. Don't believe stereotypes about french eating the most cheese..

I say:

I'm quite surprised at those figures. I heard that the French ate something like double the amount of cheese that the rest of Europe consumes, and the Greeks almost doubled the French. But then again, that was before the Greeks began dieting.

Oh how I love cheese.

Zenovia

Zenovia,

So do you not agree with freedom of speech?

That seems to be what you're implying, so please, make it clear to the rest of us.

The problem in our culture is not freedom of speech. The problem is that we have served as poor witnesses and failed to convert this culture to Christian ideals. We can't blame that on free speech.

Forgive me, but to deny freedom of speech comes off as both un-American and fascist.

For all your emphasis on patriotism, your seeming denial of this right makes you look pretty much like a total hypocrite. ??? I just don't understand your logic at all.

Logos Teen

Theist Gal,

I don't understand your comment expressing your concern about "tempers" as it relates to my post. What I'm trying to understand from those who defend the viewing of these movies is what is the value in them? So far all people have claimed is that it is their right in this country to watch whatever they wish. That's nice but what does that assertion have to do with this thread? Gordo recommends that we not watch this vile movie. I trust his judgment since I know he is seeking holiness in his life. I notice no such interest in defending this movie. If this kind of entertainment does not produce holiness why would a Christian waste the Lord's money on it? Please, help me out here. No anger. No temper trantrum. What is it about this movie that produces holiness? If it does not produce holiness why are you telling us that you watched it? Are you trying to distract us from holy living?

CDL

Dear Teen,

I think that the point Zenovia was making was how the 'freedom of speech' policy can be bastardized and twisted when pornography, a known evil that dehumanizes women and children is protected under that aegis of freedom. I fail to see how that makes her a 'hypocrite'...

I know how passionate university students are about their world views which are just being formed, but as a moderator of this board (though not this particular forum--though I have alerted its moderator to the general tone this thread has taken), I must remind you to take a deep breath before you write to someone and to try to use charitable and respectful words in your arguments.

Everyone is a little testy because of Lent and the stress of life coupled with fasting, and you may even be more so because of recent tests and grades, *but* that is never an excuse for being disrespectful.

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Teen you said:

"So do you not agree with freedom of speech?"

I say:

Actually I do believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe that freedom of speech can never really exist because of social pressure. Now that social pressure can go one way or another. In other words, what might be acceptable speech within a certain society at a certain time, is not acceptable within a different society at a different time.

It seems the 'pendulum' has swung too far to the left, and it has to swing back a little...but that is difficult when our college professors are chosen because of their 'liberal' views by many universities. Talk about influencing the youth.

Oh well, I was told to apologize to you for agreeing with Spdundas...so I guess I have to even though I was exercising my freedom of speech.

You know I really can't forget your sarcasm towards me in a thread with Bob Rossi. You tended to mimic his sarcasm....but I forgive you.

Okay now! Forgive me for agreeing with Spdundas even though we seem to hold the same views on certain things...and for that I do love him. At least this time. You know it's all politics. You dislike my conservatism and I your liberalism.

Zenovia

Dear Teen,

To clarify what I mean about freedom of speech, I don't dare mention the name of one of the men that I admire the most in this world, and that has helped me the most in my spiritual growth. I can't mention his name, because he has been so calumnized and slandered, that if I were to refer to him, everything I say would thus be misinterpreted because of preformed opinions and it would automatically discredit me.

Another example: Aren't there groups that we dare not say anything about because it would be politically incorrect?

So much for free speech. Does it really exist?

Zenovia

Dear Zenovia,

I apologize as well and hope you can forgive me during this fasting time.

I do know what you mean about social pressure as regards to freedom of speech. I believe certain groups of people have "hijacked" the Holocaust, as if it only happened to them. We all know that that the Holocaust sought to destroy more than one group of people. More basically, it sought to destroy everyone but only one group of people (Aryans!).

Now, wouldn't I probably be thrown in jail were I to say that to Abe Foxman or someone?

I don't know why you paint me as a liberal. I totally pro-life. Is that liberal?

At the same time, I am anti-war (unless it's "Just," and that can get pretty tricky), anti-death penalty unless absolutely necessary, am for preserving our environment, am for higher taxation for the wealthier, for heavy estate taxes, etc.

These might be classified as "liberal" by some, but I just think it's following what my Church teaches and what my conscience believes. Now, at the same time, I would imagine that you, being an Orthodox Christian, would also be against unnecessary war, unnecessary capital punishment, the destruction of God's green earth, etc. The difference is we define these things differently, but we agree at the very heart of it. Now, I'll admit estate taxes and taxing the wealthy are different, but let me just say that my family is, by no means at all, paupers in any sense of the word and we still believe in heavier taxation for the wealthy.

It's so easy to be for that when you're poor or against that when you're more affluent, but I believe it takes true conviction to break the mold to fight for something that, instead of helping you individually, would help the population at large. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm saying that I strive not to be just a product of my surroundings or upbringing or indoctrination, but that I do really try to look at the issues in light of my Faith and practice accordingly.

And by the way, I go to an SEC university with the largest College Republican contingent of any university in the nation. I live in the Deep South. I define myself as a pro-life Democrat whilst most of my peers define themselves as pro-choice Republicans! You can't break the mold any more than that!

Logos Teen

Oddly enough, Dan, that was what I was about to ask you. While being disgusted with the plot summaries and reviews I have seen concerning Vendetta, I have to admit that I was FAR more disgusted with your comments, to the point of thanking God that yours is not the only voice that stands for Byzantine Catholics on the internet.

Congratulations, Dan...it takes a lot to sicken me, but you managed!

I imagine that the Taliban thought that they were doing the right thing for their God when they destroyed centuries old works of art, and killed people for speaking freely. While certainly not attempting to compare the film in question to anything that vaguely resembles "art", I AM comparing your attitude to that of the Taliban...condemning everyone who dares to view anything you feel should not be viewed.

Motes and beams, here, is what I am thinking, Dan. You truly have sickened me.

Gaudior, posting this publicly in hopes that it makes you THINK.

I've received a number of posts related to this thread.

PLEASE CHILL!

I think the words are the Apostle are relevant:

Have a blessed Fast.

For clarification. I have offered no condemnation of anyone in this thread nor do I feel any for those who defend watching this movie. I am shocked at Gaudior's unconscienable attack upon me and clearly do not understand from whence it comes. I forgive his rudeness toward me and he will receive it more quickly than he asks for it.

All I wish to know is what I've been asking all along. The same question I will ask my confessor the next time I see him, "How is watching this kind of movie going to move a person toward their theosis?" That is the kind of question I've been taught to ask about everything I do. I have been taught that this is simply what we are supposed to do. If that question condemns you then go talk to your confessor. No laws, secular or religious, govern the watching of these movies by anyone. No laws block their production. But I want to be like Jesus. How will this movie help me become like Jesus? Doesn't anyone have an answer?

CDL

[irony]Perhaps you should ask your confessor whether it is right for you to go about telling OTHERS they are doing things wrong, or things that do not lead to theosis.[/irony] (hey, you asked!)

Gaudior, who reminds you that theosis is about yourself. "I thank you, God, that I am not like that poster who saw that movie! Thank you for letting me move towards theosis by insulting the faith of anyone who did see it."

***My apologies to the Forum, but this behaviour has irritated me to no end...I shall now subside into silence***

I have never said that it is a sin for Gaudior or anyone else to watch whatever movie they wished or even to insult someone on the forum if they so wish. I have asked for a clarification as to precisely how this kind of movie might help me in my theosis.

Irony indeed. Speaking of self righteousness.

CDL

Dear brother in Christ, Dan,

First let me clarify that I have not seen this movie, nor had I even heard about it until now.

As an answer to your challenging question, I would say that this movie, like much other entertainment that we watch and read is not always something that will make us better Christians nor is much of our entertainment going to help our salvation. So does it help our theosis: the answer is clearly 'no'.

If I am not mistaken, you used to be a minister, and I appreciate the challenge you set forth. It is making me think about what I have been watching and reading, and the benefit of challenging others is to make them think...so I thank you for that.

As for discussing this movie or anything else that is frivolous, I think that we should realize that not all may be at the spiritual level you are in right now, (and I say this, truly, in all honor of you and humble sincerity)--or that some may have once been there and may have slipped. Then again, we don't know what secret acts of charity and piety others, (even those who go to the movies ), may be engaging in.

Also, sometimes, in the difficult journey we call Lent, some may actually need some respite from the prayer, services, and fasting they are otherwise engaging in which is always coupled by the stress of making a living and raising families and other day to day realities. Since we are not monastics, in my humble opinion, I think that we need to keep a healthy yet virtuous and wholesome balance in our lives, and IN the world which we live---though we are certainly not OF it.

Just my personal thoughts and two cents!

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

Alice,

Thank you. I do agree with your reflections about most everything except for my spiritual advancement. Pray for me a sinner.

God be with you in your theosis.

CDL