www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Beheading of The Baptist

Friends,

Sprazdnikom!

Among the Carpatho-Russians it is rather well-known that on the Feast of the Beheading of the Forerunner and Baptist John, there is the custom of not eating from plates nor eating things that have a head shape (cabbage, apples, etc.). Today someone told me that one also does not use a knife to cut. Has anyone else heard of this? Anything else?

Tony

I've heard of the no-knife custom, although I've never heard of the no-apple one. I thought it only applied to foods which we say grow in a head (cabbage, lettuce, brusselsprouts, etc). If we can't eat any round food, I don't know what we'd be left with! But I guess every area has their own take on these customs.

Dave

Besided what you have already mentioned, another old Hutsul custom was to also not use any cup, vessel, silverware, etc. made out of silver because according to custom that St. John's head was placed on a silver platter. That custom was in addition to not eating on plates or eating head-shaped food (or even food referred to as "heads" such as lettuce, cabbage, etc.) I also had not heard of apples being forbidden that day especially considering that is the time when some apples are ready to pick.

I've also heard of no use of an axe or knife on the day of the Beheading of the Forerunner.

I find it ironic that often in icons depicting the head of the Forerunner, the plate is shown as gold and not silver, despite the explicit reference in Scripture to the plate being silver.

Go figure!

Dave, I think that may also have something to do with paint as much as Scripture. You are the iconographer here but I don't think silver paint is used very often (of course with the exception of the oklads), is it? Gold is much easier to keep a consistent color and texture relative to silver. But maybe I am way off on that, too

Silver paint and leaf are available. I don't know if they were available in the past. Silver leaf can tarnish, though, so some iconographers will use aluminium leaf instead.

I'm not making a big issue over this, though; using gold is of course a sign of great respect, and great respect is obviously shown to the head of the Forerunner. Perhaps there is a reason for painting it thusly. If the silver platter was thought of as part of a greater mockery of Saint John, maybe gold was used to show honor and veneration.

In the end, I don't find it offensive, just slightly ironic.

I think I might check some sources and ask around and see what I come up with.

Dave

Enquiring minds want to know...

I never realized there was such a thing as alumimun leaf until now, and I have learned several things from this thread from your wealth of iconographic know-how, Dave.

Iconographic know-how is what you get from growing up with an iconographer.

There are many kinds of metal leaf available: gold (in several karats and shades, like rose or lemon), silver, aluminium, gold-colored metal, copper and many others I have missed. Aluminium and other non-precious metal leafs tend to be heavier than gold leaf, as well as much less expensive (maybe 1/4 the cost of gold, if that).

But now I think I strayed from the topic at hand...

Dave

I heard about the 'no knife' tradition as well, but was told it was optional, since not everyone does that.

All of the traditions mentioned represent local variations surrounding the feast of the Beheading of the Foreunner.

Most of these are essentially village customs and are not "mandatory" in terms of church disclipline such as fasting, but are other outward manifestations of the piety of the people in honoring and celebrating the various feast days.

The tradition that I've heard of is of not eating at all.

But most of us are weak. My approach would be to eat some linguine - long and flat - eaten with a spoon and fork!

In Christ,
Andrew

Boy, I feel like I have egg (well, no eggs today; tofu, perhaps) on my face!

Having heard from childhood that the platter for Saint John's head was made of silver, I just assumed it was explicitly mentioned in Scripture. After reading the appointed readings this morning, I realize that it does not specify what metal was used. Having heard the Gospel pericope numerous times, I guess I just always imagined "platter" as "silver platter" and never heard the Gospel as-is.

So, I guess there is no special reason for showing a gold platter instead of silver. The iconographers prevail!

The humbled,

Dave

I've done some research on ancient editions of the Onion and the Anatolian National Enquirer, and I found the Rules for the feast of the Beheading of the Forunner:

1) No oaths or guests;
2) If you get beheaded, make sure your disciples take your body away;
and, last but not least,
3) NO BEHEADING PEOPLE

The great doctor Anthropos Oukeimi (3rd cent.) writes:

"Let he who would dare to break these sacred traditions, betake himself to reflection, and ask whether he should or not."

Happy Feast day to all joyful Christians!! To all non-joyful Christians: Get joyful.

LatinTrad

Dave, don't feel too bad, a lot of people back in the mountain villages apparently made the same assumption regarding St. John's head on a silver platter...and I'm not going to tell ol' Pani Kapusta she's wrong about that (or I might get beheaded).

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Some of the Hutzuly baba's in my church would make soups and kashas today. They would do all the chopping and cutting the day before.

They didn't use plate, platters, knives or sharp objects and also tried to avoid any cutting or sawing motions.

At the recent ikon exhibit in DC, there was a large hand-carved wooden platter with the Head of John the Baptist on it. It was gold-leafed and very scary and tacky. I can just see some poor child having his wits scared outta him (along with EVERYTHING ELSE) when he saw that...

As for the the other leafing products, I don't like to use them when I write ikons. They tend to tarnish and turn more rapidly than pure gold leaf does.

It's a little upsetting watching a halo turn green....

JMHO...

mark