www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Kadylo with bells

Could someone explain the significance of the kadylo with bells. How many bells are supposed to be attached to it and Why?

My understanding is that there are 13 bells for Christ and the 12 Apostles. One bell does not have a thingie (very ancient liturgical term, derived from Greek) to make it ring, symbolizing Judas. This is what my priest told me.

Dear Friends,

I find it interesting that Christians living under Muslim rule were often obliged to wear bells to let the Muslims in the public market place know the Christians were on their way and to "brace themselves."

This is where the phrase "I'll be there with bells on" ultimately derives.

Alex

Yes, the poster was corect. The bells represent Christ and the apostles. Also, they represent the Scripture saying" Make a joyful noise unto the Lord". Also, in the OT, the priest when insensing the altar would have bells on the censor so people would know that the priest was offering sacrifice. (The curtain to the Holy of Holies was closed.)

Dear Mike,

This raises an interesting point concerning the use of bells in some Eastern Churches to announce the Eucharistic Canon during the Liturgy.

Our priest said it was a "Latinization."

It was used in Latin Masses for those who didn't understand Latin to prepare for the consecration.

What say ye?

Alex

Yes, I agree that the use of larger hand bells to announce certain important parts of the Mass (ie., the Consecration, Offetory, Communion) was to announce to people that something important was going to happen. People didn't understand the Latin, they talked in church, so it was necessary to get their attention. When I first started attending my parish 23 yrs. ago they were using hand bells just like in the old Latin Church. But why? Don't know. But since we in the Eastern Churches have always had the Divine Liturgy in the venacular, I thought it unnecessary. I read on some other Catholic chat rooms that people miss it. Some people thing it ads to the "solemnity" of the event. Whatever. :rolleyes:

Dear Mike,

My old parish used the bells in this way years ago and then they gave it up. I think it was just a slavish imitation of the old Latin Church ways.

It also used the hand "knockers" for the procession with the Plashchanytsia/Epitaphion around the Church!

As I understand it, the Fathers who signed the Unia of Brest-Litovsk specifically requested that they NOT be made to have this thing in their Church.

But I think that, ultimately, they adapted it by themselves, no one "forced" them to pick this practice up.

On the other hand, my wife thinks I've gone overboard (again).

I bought a wooden hammer with a wooden bread board that has a long handle.

I now use this as a "mini-semantron" and hit the board with the hammer in groups of three, front and back, before family prayer time . . .

And what's wrong with that?

Alex

Usually it seems there are 12 bells or 9 bells on the chains - I guess for the choirs of angels or apostles. I have a kadylo made in St. Petersburg that has 12 bells on the chains, and three bells permanently welded to the base of the kadylo.

I believe it is rule # 10 in the Ordo Celebrationis for the Ruthenian Recencion promulgated in Rome that states that the small altar bells (Latin-style for the hanc igitur, consecration, etc. in the Tridentine Rite) are forbidden.

I really hate to be a purist, and I usually don't bring up stuff like this, but...

Kadilo = incense

Kadilnica (ka-deel-nee-tsa) = censer

It's a very common misnomer among "our people." I'm guessing that when the priest asked for "kadilo" they just assumed he meant the shiny, metal thingie (there's that very ancient liturgical term again; I think the Greek is thingion) and it stuck.

Regards,

-David

When my parish got a new censer with bells on it my priest said that the reason for the bells was to serve as an audible reminder to the priest that he was in the presence of God and to keep him focused on the liturgy he was celebrating.

S'Nami Boh,
Christopher

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

Alex wrote:"...find it interesting that Christians living under Muslim rule were often obliged to wear bells to let the Muslims in the public market place know the Christians were on their way and to "brace themselves..."

I find it interesting that in most areas of the Balkan Pennisula, the use of church bells was forbidden by the Moslems because the sound carried so far. This is where the use of the wooden plank to call the faithful to prayer orginated.

I have a wonderful cartoon of a Bulgarian ikon that shows Noah beating on a wooden plank with a wooden hammer, just like the ones used to call monks to prayer, to call the animals to the Ark.

the least servant of the servants of God
mark

Mark, I wonder if the semandron (the hollow board used by the Greeks to call to prayer and struck with a mallet) came out of some Moslem requirements for the monastaries in Turkey, Constantinople, etc. that were in Ottoman hands? Just wondering...
And the previous poster was correct, I checked my Old Slavonic dictionary, "kadil'nitsa" (feminine) is censor while "kadilo" (neuter) is incense...
Subdeacon Randolph, a sinner

[ 06-13-2002: Message edited by: Diak ]

Wow - how interesting.

Is that really where the saying: "I'll be there with bells on" originates or are you just being clever? I would have to remember that when I talk to my fellow progressive Kalifornian comrades of the "nEw AgE" . . . .

And is there real significance to the relation of wooden clackers and the prohibition of bells by muslims? Such little factoids are interesting to say the least.

And Kadilnica . .. . very cool. Thanks.
It all makes so much sense. How many times the priest asked for the sensor when I was an alter boy by the simple word: "Incense!"
Greek thingions are most interesting!

ALity

CIX!

I was always given to understand that the wooden Semandron is older than the use of the bells - the Byzantines used Semandra, and the use of church bells only started with the Slavs who adopted them from the Latins.

Just my two cents!

in Domino,

Edward

Regarding Alex's comment on the use of "hand knockers" during the procession with the plashchanytsia, here is Article Eight of the Union of Brest:

"Likewise that we should not be compelled to have the blessing of fire, the use of wooden clappers, and similar ceremonies before Easter, for we have not had such ceremonies in our Church until now, but that we should maintain our ceremonies according to the rubrics and the Typicon of our Church."

(Does anyone know about the blessing of fire?)

I have seen clappers and ratchets - identical to ones used during the Great Friday procession - in two places: the musuem of folk musical instruments in Bratislava; and the synagogue/musuem of Jewish history in Prague. I asked two friends when these came into use. They responded that the instruments have been in use from ancient times - centuries B.C.!