www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why I am leaving this forum

Greetings All,

The real question that one has to ask at this point is the following:

Is the eucharist the eucharist?

What I mean by this is can anyone show me that when one a guitar at mass, or an auto show that the consecrated host is not the real presence?

That is all that is important. All of the other stuff is just window dressing. Sometimes we are so concerned with the "red words" in the sacramentary that we loose site of the real words in the sacramentary, latin or english.

Peter

Glory to Jesus Christ!

1/3 of the world is Christian. Of all Christians, 1/2 are Catholic, 1/4 are Orthodox. The other 1/4 are split between 300,000 ProtestAnt religions. Thats not a shabby number for the Orthodox! But I agree that Orthodoxy does need to do a better job of evangelizing. Orthodoxy needs a few Dan Lauffers out there! God Bless.

IC XC NIKA,
-Nik!

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Nik ]

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Nik ]

Nik,

Thanks. But it is God who gives the passion. If one has the Spirit one shares the Spirit. If one does not then that one needs prayer. I guess I'm beyond wondering why so few share their evangelical adventures. Either the Spirit of God has come upon one or He hasn't. Let God judge beyond that.

Let us pray that more people will be open to His Spirit and then stand back and watch God work.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Friends,

The really nice thing about this Board, I think, is that we all have an opportunity to share insights and to offer advice.

Sometimes we say things that are nasty, as I know I've done, and then there is always an opportunity to apologise, as I think that deep down we all really do love each other in Christ.

I too am very saddened by the absence here of Reader Serge. I ask his apology for mentioning him as he's asked not to further involve him here. But I didn't start this discussion.

For the record, I thought that his treatment by some posters here was shabby, inconsiderate and insensitive. And I said so at the time.

He was singled out and attacked in a most regrettable fashion. He went away hurt and offended. My one great regret is that I failed to be much more aggressive in redressing that matter as it set a very bad precedent having to do with our former colleague here who had contributed so much to our understanding not only of Eastern Christianity, but of other Christian traditions with which he was, and is, so conversant, as everyone here who knows the Reader, is aware.

And this is apart from the matter between the Administrator and him about which I don't know enough, frankly, to comment on and will leave alone because I don't.

As for Joe Zollars, I think he is articulating his position and is growing through the strain he is experiencing in relating to us here. And I think that is a good thing and I hope he stays with us. His spiritual Father that he has spoken to obviously shares the view of Joe that our Administrator has, and I think Joe is mature enough and knows in his heart that they are both right. And we can benefit from his zeal and determined faith while he works on channeling it a bit better for the sake of the glory of God.

I know I have sinned against members of this internet community and before it.

I thank you all for putting up with mu immaturities and for your encouragement. I think I've learned a thing or two about emotional detachment on subjects that are very close to me and which, when I'm attacked on, set off a bit of a time bomb in my mind and heart.

I know I threaten to leave, but then again, Nik changes churches . . . kidding, Nik, kidding!

The success of this community, and it is a real success, is based not on sinlessness or that we always treat one another the way we should treat one another in Christ. We all know that there are times, such as with our Brother Serge, that we don't.

Our success is based on coming back here and seeking knowledge, obtaining comfort and asking forgiveness through a mutual self-examination of our hearts in the effort aimed at trying to understand ourselves and one another, whether we are cradle this or that, or whether we are converts.

I've never been a convert, and so I guess that is why I'm sometimes cynical about them. And I come from a tradition where "conversion" always meant "forced" by someone else, often capable of inflicting real physical pain on those who don't comply.

I ask for Nik's forgiveness and that of Rum Orthodox and Bob Orthoman. I ask for Reader Serge's forgiveness for failing to do what I should have done at the time when I knew he was being attacked for no fault of his own. I have a big mouth and I should have put it to use then.

I've come to realize how much there is in me that is not "of Christ" and how much needs to be stripped off, like bad drywall and carpet from my new home.

Despite my insecurities, emotions and confusion, I've learned how much Christ really means to me.

And I've learned how much Christ really does live in all of you and that He touches my life through you.

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Also Dan, some are given the gifts you have, some are not and are give others. You have been given the gift to evangelize, given a golden tongue like St. John Chrysostom. Others may have other talents to help build the Kingdom. God Bless!

Orthodox proselytizing in Catholic territorites like Mexico, South America, Ivory Coast! Who'da thunk it?

From adherents.com

Catholics 1030 million
Orthodox 240 million
Other 656 million (includes separately tabulated liberal protestant, conservative protestant, pentecostals, anglican, indigenous African)

Overall ~2 million of a world population of ~6 billion: ~1/2 catholic, ~1/3 other, and ~1/8 Orthodox.

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

Dear djs,

Ah, yes, but it's quality, not quantity that counts, no?

RC's baptise many in Latin America, for example, who later may become communist guerrillas or lapsed Catholics, members of Santeria etc.

Their baptismal certificates are unaltered, nevertheless.

Unlike the Pope's baptismal certificate, however.

When he became Pope, the priest in the parish where he was baptised took out the baptismal record books.

When he found the name "Karol Woytyla" he added: "- became Pope, Oct. 16 etc.).

Not even a specially framed certificate!

Alex

Certainly true, Alex.

And that point has implications for the count in all denominations. I don't care about the numbers per se, I just wanted to clarify them, with a source.

Likewise, I should add that I am delighted to see Orthodox missionary activity. I just like to underscore it, since Orthodox missionary activity in Mexico had been flatly denied in a previous post on this forum.

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

Dear djs,

I think Orthodox missionary activity in Latin countries is a good thing.

It may have the effect of making the Orthodox a bit more open-minded about the West and Roman Catholicism .

I wonder what the Orthodox attitude toward Our Lady of Guadalupe is?

Alex

I think that missionary activity in Latin America as well as other predominatly Catholic Countries on behalf of the Orthodox is a WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL thing. Part of my reasons are outlined in Redear Serge's most wonderful website www.oldworldrus.com [oldworldrus.com] particularly on the "Orthodoxy: Saving medicine for the whole Church" page (http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/East.html).

As Reader Serge himself clarified he does not mead that the whole world should become Orthodox but that the awareness of Eastern Orthodoxy can lead to a deeper awareness of the whole of Christian Truth.

The Whole Truth is present in Orthodoxy.

I look for the day when a million or more golden Cuppula's shall shine above american soil.

May St. John Maximovich of Shanghai and San Fransisco and Bl. Hieromonk Seraphim (Rose) of Platina intercede for the conversion of America.

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

God bless you!

I was going to say something about Orthodoxy's married priests and penchant for standing for Communion, but I changed my mind

Forgive me and feel free to berate me openly and publicly any time you wish.

Give my best to Reader Sergius.

Alex

well, Alex, I would not berate you publically (or privately for that matter).

Secondly, that is their tradition not ours.

Joe Zollars

Dear Joe,

Thank you for that. And yes, I believe you made that point on one or two occasions before .

Are you considering becoming Orthodox of the Western Rite, perhaps?

If it's none of my business, never mind.

Alex

St JOhn is a Saint but I don't think that the late Father Seraphim has been glorified even by the ROCOR. If someone knows something different, let me know.
There are very WIDE differences in opinion on Father Seraphim's ideas among Orthodox Christian clergy and laity.