www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Why I am leaving this forum

Remie,

The big difference here is that Joe has only been Catholic for a very short time. He has never had these things as an integral part of his spiritual life. IMHO, he appears to be latching on to the externals of the Tridentine Mass rather than solidifying his roots in Christ and His Church (hence my often repeated suggestion that he find a good spiritual director and work with him to properly form him into someone who can work diligently and faithfully for Christ).

Admin

Administrator,

I wished you had left well enough alone concerning Serge. Serge never once attacked the Roman Catholic Church. You were were and are wrong to keep accusing him of that. I humbly ask that you stop spreading this tale. It is not fair especially since Serge is not here to defend himself.

Dan Lauffer

It's hilarious to think that Serge's posts "attacked" the Roman Catholic Church when one does a cursory reading of the Orthodox Forum, Indiana List, or protestant websites. Whereas there all you find is polemical hatred, Serge always explained what he meant, dialouged, and had a well-thought-out reason for his beliefs. The only thing that he might have done wrong was let himself get involved in personal polemics with a cerain poster here who called him a Russian "wannabe", or when he offended Sharon. Other than that, he was a good addition to this site.

anastasios

Sorry, Dan, but you are incorrect.

While Serge has contributed many well-written posts to this Forum, earlier this year his posts focused almost solely upon his crusade against the Roman Catholic Church and the problems he sees in her (some real, some imaginary). His posts had disturbed enough people that I received numerous e-mails asking that I take action. The action I took (after consultation with the moderators at that time) was to simply ask Serge to refrain from discussions in which he could not control his emotion. He chose to stop posting entirely on The Byzantine Forum and took his crusade to a message board on his own website and then to another board.

I wish him every blessing and success. He is obviously a person with great gifts who can well serve the Church. He is most welcome to resume posting on the Forum as long as he complies with the policies and rules.

Remie:


I am afraid you are missing the drift.

What Joe is tantamount to saying is that the "Novus Ordo" is not efficacious, or not as efficacious as the Tridentine Mass, in re-presenting the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is central to Catholic belief.

In effect, most Roman Catholics (a Billion or so) have been served a "counterfeit" Mass all these years?

I don't think so.

And such a judgment coming from a recent convert to Roman Catholicism smacks of either utter hypocrisy or complete ignorance, or both.


AmdG

Dustin,

I hope you are not suggesting that the forums you cite are prime examples of Christian charity?

I agree that Serge is capable of excellent posts. Unfortunately, his posts regarding the issues facing the Roman Catholic Church were less than charitable and needed to be addressed because of the disruption they caused on this Forum. Don�t forget that there are other individuals who were also asked to be more charitable in their posts and that these people chose to find a way to discuss the issues without the disruptive emotional content.

Admin

I have been told by a friend via email that I should read the replies that have been made to my post. I did so and am greatly offended. Amado Guerrero, I have never said such a thing. I have never even implied that I believed such a thing. To believe such a thing would be to border on heresy.

I accept that Pauline Mass, I just don't like it as much as I like the Pian Mass. There are millions who simply prefer the Pian Mass. For us the Pope has said that the Mass according to the Missal of 1962 is to be made readily available (Ecclesia Dei).

I have never said, nor have I ever intentionally implied that I thought that the post conciliar Church was going to h*ll in a handbasket. The Liturgy of the 1969 Missal is just as good as the Liturgy of the 1962 Missal. There is no way you can compare one Eucharist with another. It is simply a matter of personal preference. I prefer the 1962 Missal and for that I am labeled by one poster in this forum as being in a state of "rebellion against the Magisterium?" Well then I guess the Pope is in rebellion to since he said the Latin Mass and issued Ecclesia Dei as well as approving several orders for the traditional Roman Rite Community.

Joe Zollars

Joe,

You did both say and imply these things in the posts you deleted.

Admin

Admin:

I don't seem to remember this, but if I did say or imply these things, I did so unintionaly.

MY opinion as regards the Pauline vs. Pian issue is that they are both equally eficacious and I simply prefer the Pian Mass.

In fact, the original Missal of Paul VI was simply a condensation of the Pian Mass. There are major abuses going on in the Liturgy of the Roman Rite. I do not like these abuses and do believe that Masses riddled with liturgical abuses and inovations are not as efficacious as those done "by the book" because these abuses and innovations do not carry the blessing of Rome, whose Rite it is supposed to be.

As Marcus Grodi once put it, "I didn't convert just to be a Protestant all over again." This quote was given a few months back on the Journey Home Show on EWTN. They were speaking of Liturgical innovations.

Joe Zollars

Well, I went and talked to a wise and holy Priest I know in a nearby town earlier this evening. Our talk was all too brief, but he advised me to come back here and ask the forgiveness of each and every one of you before leaving. In fact he advised me not to leave but simply to limit my discussions to either Pan-Catholic matters or specifically Eastern Catholic matters.

However, I have decided it wiser for me to leave since I am disruptive to the nature of this board.

I ask you all to forgive me for my many numerous sins and to pray for me.

Joe Zollars

I agree that Serge was a good addition to this site and is very knowledgeable about Eastern Christianity. However, toward the end of his stay here he did seem to focus too much attention on the Roman Catholic Church. We Eastern Catholics always say we are a full Church distinct from the Latins, but when a lurker reads many of the posts here they can see that a lot of discussion is done on issues specifically pertaining to the Latin Church. I remember when this forum was focused mainly on Eastern Christianity, before the crash. It also seemed like a much more cordial place before the crash. Let's work together to bring it back to that.

In Christ,
Anthony

Joe Zollars wrote:
>>In fact he advised me not to leave but simply to limit my discussions to either Pan-Catholic matters or specifically Eastern Catholic matters. <<

Mr. Zollars,

There is a wonderful opportunity here for you to develop your communication skills. I suggest that you follow the advice of your priest friend in limiting the types of discussions that you participate in. I would add one suggestion. Limit yourself to a total of two posts per day on one internet forum of your choosing (here or elsewhere) and wait one hour after composing each post before posting it. That will build your skill in composing posts, allowing time for your emotions to settle before committing a post

Admin

Joe,

I'm no liturgical expert, infact I probably couldn't speak much of the language, so I tend to stay out of these liturgical debates here and on another forum I frequent.

But the Latin Rite (or Church) is not like the EO Churches in that the Latin Rite caters to a much more broad groups of people. So you will find some differences in the way the Mass is celibrated in say a black American inner city Church to the Indians in Mexico. Or at least this is my understanding.

I think it would be nice to have more Latin spoken in our Masses, and I don't care for some of the changes that of come about even since I've been a child - and I was born after Vatican II. But the Church has been going through a time of transition and it will take a little time for it to work things out.

But never in my life have I ever been to a "Clown Mass" or a Mass with people swinging from ropes or a Mass with an auto show going on at the same time or a Mass with a disco party going on. And I've been to Masses at two Churches in Las Vegas the "city of sin" and the worst thing I witnessed was a Priest let people know during collection time that they accept casino chips also.

The Latin Church is spreading big time over the east like a wild fire, and this time around their not destroying everyones culture and replacing it with a European one. Even in America black converts is up - very small - but it's there. The Church prefers to take the good of others culture and reconcile it with the Mass if they can.

Where is the Orthodox? Forget bringing the name of Christ to people - how many people outside Orthodoxy are converting to and visiting the sacrament of confession because of the Orthodox refusal to adapt? I can tell you the Latin Church brings confession and Eucharist to new peoples. The Orthodox? Well it's the old boys network same people same families - not that anything is wrong with that - but the 21st century offers new territory to conquer and the ones that can't see will suffer the consequence and the pain to their ego's.

Just my thoughts.


Justin

I guess you have never attended an Antiochian or OCA parish on the West Coast? If you had, you would not make such claims about Orthodox "deadness or inaction" Orthodoxy is growing in this country. In a small way, yes but growing. Don't write off the ancient Church so fast. If you have read Gillet or Father Meyendorff among so many others, you would not think that Orthodoxy does not respond to the MOdern World.

I trust that Justin's words are a blip on an otherwise mostly level headed forum regarding the status of Orthodox Christianity in this world. Before we become too enamoured with equating truth and success with the power of this world, I'll remind all of us that history has not always painted the same picture that you describe today. The reason that this must be stated is not that I want to "live in the past" (as so often Orthodox are accused) but rather that the demographics of Orthodoxy and Catholicism are as much an accident of history as a result of dedication to missionary outreach.

Orthodoxy, (that is, for some, the Eastern Church) was no small player on the world scene, as you seem to think it is today, for the first 1400 years of Christian history. The Byzantine empire had a tremendous missionary spirit, Rus being its greatest result. Even after the fall of the Byzantine empire, Russia was virtually entirely Orthodox, and was sending its own missionaries from Alaska to China to Japan. Today, however, we should also remember that many mostly Orthodox countries are still reeling from 70 years of atheism where at least 20 million Orthodox Christians lost their lives, and thousands of churches were destroyed - that is, the majority of the churches, as well as priests and bishops, perished. What if that had not happened? What good things would the church of Russia have done, since they were supporting missionaries continuously throughout the world, and especially in the "new world"? And although it is the largest, the Russian Church is only one example of Orthodox countries throughout the world whose missionary efforts were squelched due to communism.

And you may also not be aware of the thousands of converts that have been made in America in the past 30 years. My jurisdiction, the Orthodox Church in America, has opened over 170 new churches since 1970 as a direct result of missionary and evangelistic efforts - most of them in the south and west. Yes, the Orthodox Church is small in America, but the typical American attitude is that "if it's true in America, it must be true everywhere." I just came back from Russia, and I can tell you, that the Orthodox Church is rebuilding and thriving there, even though they are having to face an onslaught of convert-hungry western missionaries, for which they are ill-prepared. And by the way, there are many Russians that have never heard of the Catholic Church, just like the Catholics here have never heard of Orthodoxy.

So, these older, venerable churches are not currently able to seek "new territories to conquer" as you put it, since the largely Orthodox countries are still awaking from a 70 year nightmare that will not be shaken off completely any time soon. But eventually they will rebuild and then they will missionize and evangelize as they have always done.

However, you should be aware that the Orthodox in America have a very active missionary spirit, embodied in the Orthodox Christian Mission Center. You can read more about their outstanding work at http://www.ocmc.org .

In Christ,

Priest Thomas Soroka
St. Nicholas Orthodox Church
McKees Rocks, PA
http://www.stnicholas-oca.org

[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Fr. Thomas ]