www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall The Pope's Cap

Dear Amado,

I understand that Israel Zolli is up for a possible Canonization.

That would make him a completed Christian!

Alex

Dear Alex:

I did not know that!

It would be beautiful as Zolli will join the devout Carmelite nun, St. Edith Stein, as the only Jewish converts thus canonized. (Are there others?)


AmdG

Dear Amado,
You are correct that a Norbertine Cardinal must wear a red zuc, however, if he is a Cardinal technically he is no longer a member of the order. I'm not sure about the special permission for Norbertine abbots wearing white zucs since the Norbertine habbit pre-dates the modern papal dress. When I was a Norbertine novice I remember people always used to say to us "you dress like the Pope" and we would say "no, the Pope dresses like us". A Norbertine abbot dresses exactly like the Pope except for the white scapular of the order. I bet a Norbertine Abbot can cause quite a stir strolling about the streets of Rome.

Dear Laus Tibi,

The Pope dresses like us?

This reminds me of what our ancestors used to say when they first came into union with Rome.

When asked why the Pope was being commemorated in their Churches, our Eastern Catholic ancestors said, "The Pope has joined the Orthodox Church!"

Alex

Dear LTC:

Don't you think an Abbot of the Norbertine Order would still belong to this Order even if he was made a Cardinal?

His Eminence, Avery Cardinal Dulles, S.J., is still a Jesuit, to me at least.


AmdG

Dear Alex:

Lucky them!

I have been trying hard to be a "completed Christian" all my life.

And, lucky you as you are always more than a step ahead of us in "completing" your Christian life, having been basking under the sun with His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, for a week in Toronto.


AmdG

Latin priests can also wear a black zuchetto. Priests in religious orders with white habits (ie Norbertines, Dominicans) can wear a white zuchetto.

I do not know if these rules were modified after Vatican II.

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin

Alex,

It wasn't too long ago that our eparchs wore the zuc as well.

As to its removal if must be for the same reason that all head coverings are removed during the anaphora. I don't know the official reason.

I don't know of any other reason other than its practicality for its use. For its continued use it must be to denote rank?

And yes, hermano Amado and Laus, the Norbertines use the white zuc, but is it watered silk like the pope's?

Once while attending a pilgrimage at Holy Resurrection Monastery, Norbertines from St Michael's were in attendance including the abbot. My 6 year old son asked if that man (the abbot) was the pope.

John

[ 07-30-2002: Message edited by: bisantino ]

Dear Amado,
Most religious priests do retain a certain close affiliation with the Order they belonged to, but technically when they become Bishops or Cardinals they no longer belong to the Order, and the Pope grants them a dispensation from their vow of poverty(because as a Bishop they must own property in their name).

John,

I believe silk is/was a priveldged material for Latin clerics. Only certain clerics can/could wear silk.

In Iesu et Maria,
Justin

For that matter, what is the liturgical regulations for wearing a Klobuk with or without the veil for Diving Liturgy? For instance, I believe a hierarch (or priest/monk) may wear his klobuk at all times except when venerating an icon and during the liturgy. Anyone know the rule? Does it apply to all clerics or just the priest at the Alter? For instance, if a cantor were granted permission to wear a klobuk, when would he remove it? Please enlighten.

Dmitri

Here's a link to a page describing what the OCA practice is and this is, for the most part, the practice that I've seen in the Ukrainian Catholic Church when clerics wear headcoverings (which is rare.) Head Covering [holy-trinity.org]

Also, it is my understanding that the (Slavic style) hat worn by clerics (sometimes described as a "stovepipe" hat) is known as the Kamilavka. This can be worn by any priest. I've been told by a Ukrainian Orthodox priest that for a deacon to wear it, it should be bestowed by one's hierarch. I'm not sure what the procedure is in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. When the veil is added, which is a purely monastic garment, it is then known as a Klobuk.

Fr. Deacon James

Whatever happened to Orthodox Catholic? I have not noticed him posting here of late.I do pray that he is well.

Dear Friend,

I'm fine so far, but was on a long weekend.

I find that I must read more to get more educated on matters liturgical, scriptural etc. to keep up with you fellows here.

God bless,

Alex

In the pre-Vatican II days, bishops and cardinals of old religious orders were permited to wear vestments in the colors of their orders. A Dominican bishop wore white (he really looked like the Pope, except for the purple zuccetto), a Dominican Cardinal wore black and white. A Franciscan cardinal wore grey. A Carmelite bishop I knew wore a brown cassock, with white pipping. They don't loose the affiliation with the order, even though they take a vow of poverty.