www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Episcopal Church USA elects Woman Presiding Bishop

When I see stories like this, I thank God that I came East.

God bless,

Karen

This is not new in the Episcopal Churches. A female has been the Head (Bishop) of the Episcopal Church in England since the 1950s, namely Queen Elizabeth. She, de facto, appoints or dismisses the Archbishops of Canterbury at will.

In Christ,
Andrew

As Anglicanism continues to self-destruct (what would one expect from an "ecclesial community" founded on the right of a king to a divorce?), who stands to gain? Obviously, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. At least, our two Churches stand to inherit the best of those in Anglicanism. The rest will continue on in modernism and "gay-friendly" and "new-age" spirituality, negotiating their "labyrinths" until the death of the denomination. Sad.

Fr. Deacon Robert

Nah. We will get some of those as well. We also do labyrinths.

However, when the reaction from one of our own to the nomination of a female "presiding bishop" is...

...I wonder whether "we" are actually much better than "they" are.

Don't get me wrong, I adhere with all my heart to our Church's teaching regarding the sacrament of Holy Orders.

However, the teaching doesn't say that women are not allowed to be ordained because they are less-than-human beasts.

Whatever "church" teaches that heresy is not my Church.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,
Obviously, that was just a clumsy attempt at humor. The poster tried to make a "funny" out of the use of the term "primate". But, you are right at taking exception.

Dn. Robert

BTW, stay away from all of that "labyrinth" stuff.

Actually, I think the labyrinths are like prayer beads, incense, and other things: a neutral medium that can be used as a Christian meditation tool or sadly coopted and missused like many other things often are by New Agers.

The Monastery of Chevetogne has a labyrinth in its Latin Church:
http://www.monasterechevetogne.com/content.php?item=2&sub=3

Dear Father Deacon,

I do not think the issue lends itself to humor. At least not like that.

I think I agree with Deacon Lance here. The labyrinth is not exactly my cup of tea, but I understand it has been a positive influence for many, so there might be something to it.

I am not one to discard things just because I don't like them, or just because they're new or just because they're old.

However, if you start listening to things like parish churches being built around the labyrinth (as opposed to the sanctuary or the tabernacle or a cross), well, that is something else.

I even joined some people who are pushing for the ordination of women in a prayer campaign to discern God's will.

My personal result from that prayer campaing was the discernment that God's will, as expressed in the teachings of the Catholic Church, is that the priesthood is to be reserved to men.

Admitedly, the sacrament of Holy Orders is conferred for the priesthood only to presbyters and bishops. The Order of Deacons do not receive the sacrament for the priesthood but for service and therefore, I think there might be still some room to discuss female Deacons (or Deaconesses, whatever we call them) as ordained ministers, but the whole issue is too hot right now, so I do not anticipate any further discussion at the official level any time soon.

Shalom,
Memo

It's the latter I was thinking of. I haven't delved too deeply into the issue of labyrinths, but a parishioner of ours who converted from Anglicanism (she was very "high church") indicated to me that her former Episcopal Diocese, a very liberal, "new-agey" one, used to send people on "labyrinth" retreats, and that some who went to these retreats returned in a state that one could only interpret as "over the top" (her description). This is why I made the critical comments about Episcopalians and labyrinths, and had advised "staying away".

Dn. Robert

From what I've read and been taught, the Catholic Church regards the male Diaconate to involve the sacrament of Holy Orders, while the ancient female Diaconate did not involve Holy Orders. The topic gets a little complex in the East, because there is historical evidence that, in the Church of Constantinople, women were ordained to Diaconate using an ordination text very close to that of what was used for men. From what I remember reading, they did not function in the Altar, but they did keep order on the "women's side" of the nave, they brought Holy Communion to shut-in women, and they were involved in the Baptism of women (because of the fact of the need for the newly-enlightened to disrobe, and be baptized by full immersion in the local river). If the Church discerns a true need for a return of that ministry, you may see it in the future.

Dn. Robert

What's so scary is that the church looks like a RCC...that female bishop celebrating "liturgy" which looks very similar to a RCC Novus Ordo.

I've watched Episcopal Liturgy on TV before (they air it live every Sundays in my town), and to be honest with you, I really cannot tell the difference between RCC and Episcopal Liturgy. Very similar!

Looks like RCC isn't too far ahead of it! It makes me wonder...is RCC a RCC? Or is RCC an Episcopal Church? (or vice versa)???

Sounds like RCC's right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing!

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Of course the Catholic Church is an Episcopal Church - we have bishops, don't we? And we have a strong principle on how we must be in union with and dependent upon the bishop.

As to the Deaconess - one should remember that she has at least one sacramental ministry that the Deacon does not have: the Deaconess may administer the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick (although she must use for that purpose oil blessed by a priest - or, in the Latin Church, oil blessed by the bishop). A male Deacon may never do this. The reason, obviously, is the preservation of modesty.

Incognitus

Yes, there is NO hope of reconciliation with people like this barring a major breakthrough from God.
This is why I determined some years ago to give up on the Ecumenical Movement.
Now I dedicate my life to a reconciliation between East and West. May God hasten the day that we are in communion with each other.
Stephanos I

I recall reading an old RCC prophecy. It said that England will become Catholic again, but it will not convert as a whole entity, instead the people will gradually join the Church.

I know that the Episcopal Church and it antics here, have nothing to do with England...as yet.

Zenovia

I know a number of Episcopalians who try to hold to apostolic tradition, and are often more orthodox in doctrine than some Catholics. There is a conservative Anglican body in this area that I find much in common with. But it seems to me that ECUSA has become a rogue church that has departed from apostolic tradition and pretty accurately reflects the worst of our decadent culture. There's nothing wrong with ecumenism, but true ecumenism truthfully points out error, instead of confirming it. At some point ecumenism can become syncretistic, and/or totally indifferent. If the Episcopalians consecrated an ape, I might have greater respect for them. At least the ape doesn't intend to lead anyone astray with its errors. But all kidding aside, it seems to me this is not only about ordaining women, it is also about holding positions that are incompatible with apostolic Christianity. In this politically correct age where even some of our bishops can not call a spade a spade, as Mr. Rogers would say, "can you say sin?"

Two things:

As regards our new primate: Te Deum Laudamus!

Please also note that more guys from Rome come to othe Episcopal Church than ours to yours.

Other than that, have a great day.


Fr. Mike