www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Episcopal Church USA elects Woman Presiding Bishop

Brian,

Certainly where charity and love are, there is God, but telling one's brother or sister in Christ that sin is not sin is neither love nor charity, nor does God abide there. The ECUSA is fast on the road to becoming the liturgical Unitarian Church. To all the Episcopals who still believe in Christ and the teachings of His Church, I wish Godspeed in finding a home in the Catholic or Orthodox Church, retaining the Anglican Use. Or at the least able to form an Anglo Catholic Church away from the liberal agenda driven ECUSA.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon Lance,

I can't help but wonder just how much financial support is given out to the Anglican churches in the Third World Countries, so that they are unable to excommunicate the American Episcopal Church. They certainly have problems...and it seems to be on a world scope. It might appear easy for individual churches here to separate themselves from the Episcopal Church, but all these poor parishes throughout the world dependant on them for support...what do they do?

...And those b-------- in the Episcopal Church who voted for her know it? They know they can vote in anyone they want, and no one is able to do anything about it. I think it's about time those Anglican Churches in Third World Countries, (the one's that are probably in desperate need), start being approached by some other Church...and come home.

Zenovia

Episcopalians Curb Policy on Gays

After rejecting a ban on gay bishops, church leaders put a stumbling block in their way, hoping to pacify the Anglican Communion.
http://q13.trb.com/news/la-na-episcopal22jun22,0,3879124.story?coll=kcpq-news-2

IMHO, the Episcopal Church and, by extension, the entire Anglican Communion, has been a lost cause for quite some time.

We can only hope to draw in certain pastors, people, and parishes (and we do), not the entire Communion, which it seems will unfortunately forever be separated from Christ's Church.

Logos Teen

Many years ago I had read an old RCC prophecy that said, 'the great nation in the sea that will be made up of all different people, because of arrogance will be destroyed through hurricanes, an earthquake and a tidal wave. It will be split into two parts, and much of it will be underwater.

Well I always wondered where and how we were arrogant? Well now I see it! The Episcopal Church is a perfect example. How in the world can we impose our own rediculous cultural values not only on our own Churches, but even go so far as to impose those values on the Churches throughout the world?

Zenovia

there is hope, boys and girls. there is more similarity between the Anglicans and the Orthodox than Anglicans and Latins. there are elements of the Anglican liturgy that evoke Constantinople, and I have noticed many affinities between true Anglican piety and that of us ECs and canonical Orthodox. open the doors, and set out the welcome mat, folks, heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere they come!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much Love,
Jonn

despite all the rhetoric here from outside the Episcopal Church (there used to be ab Episcopal priest on this board whose feedack I WOULD wish to hear) and the extreme actions taken by some at their General Convention, I know quite happy Episcopalians who are worshipping Our Lord every Sunday in their Churches. We must not forget the INDIVIDUALS despite our objections to the actions taken by some in that Church.. Let not our rhetoric or righteousness makes us lose sight of Christian charity EVER.
If some Episcopalians choose to enter the Orthodox or Catholic Churches, that is their PERSOnal spiritual journey not something that we should be baiting. And also they should come because they see the fulness of truth inthe Apostolic Churches not because of a few social issues. That is just my belief and I have been a bit saddened at some of the comments from outside the ECUSA on this board. I have many friends in the ECUSA and although I have differences with them, I respect them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Here's a quote from the "bishop" in which she calls Him "Mother Jesus:"

http://www.americananglican.org/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ikLUK3MJIpG&b=1631033&ct=2674353

Brian I don't think anyone is downing all the people persay, it is not necessarily the body. But it is the politics, Jesus says to love the sinner and not the sin. We are grouping it together. What is going on there is just as devasting to many as things that happen within our own church. However, they are permitting their Church to be highjacked. That is sad, becasue so many who like to fall for whatever the good feeling thing is is running the Church.

Brian,

First and foremost ... it is not individuals of whom we are speaking but of the general direction that the ECUSA sadly seems to be movin in. Yes there are those who are genuinely worshipping (or trying to worship but being hindered by all of this nonsense) God in the ECUSA. Just as there are in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).

The worry is that these people are being hindered in their worship or worse being led astray by those with a "progressive" agenada wherein the biggest "sin" one can commit is to call sin what it is ... Sin.

I do not believe that what we are talking about here is just a "few social issues". These are thing that can and will lead people on a wide and easy path straight to eternal damnation.

The ECUSA, the ELCA and other groups who are similarly increasingly relativistic in their official positions and statements are trying to codify and formally teach things that are simply untrue.

I do not believe that it is lacking in charity (Christian or otherwise) to point out that this action and the statements by their new Bishop are dangerous to the souls of those who follow them.

In fact I think it would show a complete lack of charity and contempt for our bretheren if we were to ignore the seriousness of the situation or fail to point out those errors which could place thousands of souls in peril.

Saying that homosexuality (and by saying that homosexuals were "created" to "love people of the same sex" the Bishop means homosexual acts) are not sin is so much more than a social issue. It is moral relativism. First sodomy isn't a sin. What's next?

The leadership of ECUSA is embarking on a dangerous and slippery slope and they are risking more than their own souls. I fail to see how we can, in good consience, ignore that.

Sin affects the entire body of Christ. Just as cancer in the lung is of concern to the whole body, so is this cancer of concern to the whole body of believers in Christ.

We would be remiss if we weren't paying attention to what is happening. We would be remiss if we weren't praying for all of the Episcopal and Anglican churches. We would be remiss if we allowed others to say that sin is not sin.

What their Bishop is doing by trying to use her official position as a spiritual leader to convince people that it is not a sin to commit a sin ... that is not charity or love.

In Christ,

Carole

Carole,

thanks for your perspective. I would not agree with your characterization of it but I'm grateful for your elucidation in charity

Dear Brian,

I have a different take on the situation by some in the more liberal denominations. I believe that if one is truly devout, and has opened their heart to the Holy Spirit, they would be enlightened as to what is sinful and what isn't. I say this because so many place their compassion and sympathy on those that commit sinful acts, rather than recognizing what those acts truly are. In other words how we perceive something is a reflection of what our relationship is to God, rather than having our beliefs, actions or non actions, helping us to acquire that relationship with God.

So in my account, one who see's no fault in homosexual acts, or in abortion, (though I have much compassion for those having the misfortune of living in our liscentious present day society), are in a state far from God, and are thus lacking the Grace and therefore the ability of reasoning in a more Godly and enlightened way.

Zenovia

I would never pronounce on who has the Grace of God or not. Your mileage may vary but that is just too much. Only OUr Lord can see into the hearts of people not fallible human beings, conservative, liberal or whatever.

Sadly for the Episcopal Church, Fr. Mike, if indeed more Catholics drift to the ECUSA than from Canterbury to Rome, it's not because of any true religious conviction. Rather, it's because 1.) the Episcopal Church has pretty much stopped condemning anything as sin except for "racism, sexism and homophobia", and 2.) women can become clergy in the Episcopal Church. In short Fr. Mike, the Episcopal Church drawing converts from Rome does so only because it offers a venue more palatable to agenda-driven modernists. And yes, Fr. Mike, this is coming from a former Episcopalian who converted to the Catholic Church and a man who struggles daily with same-sex attraction. If I recall, Fr. Mike, you were once Catholic. I pray that you'll one day return to the true Church of Christ. The ECUSA and the Anglican Communion as a whole were originally founded by an apostate Catholic who left the Catholic Church because the reigning Pontiff would not allow him to divorce his wife.

NEMO

Dear Brian you said:

I say:

What you say is true, only our Lord can see into the hearts of people, for we can never truly know what a person's state is, only God knows. Yet if they have not been enlightened within themselves that certain actions are sinful, then they cannot be close to God.

In other words, it is not how a person will project himself publicly to others, but rather what he himself believe's to be sinful or not, that determines the extent of enlightenment within him, and therefore the extent of Grace.

Again I state that I am saying this as someone that firmly believes it is not in how we obey the Commandments that will give us God's Grace, but rather it is God's Grace that will detemine whether we are carrying out our Lord's Commandments in our hearts.

So one's first and main purpose is to turn to God and accept that we are sinners in need of redemption. Then God in His way will enlighten us as to our sins...as well as to what is sinful.

Zenovia