www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pius X Society being regularized?

Mexican,

If the Society were to become a personal prelature of the Pope, then their it's priests wouldn't be under the local ordinary. Or maybe that's an apostolic administration. One or the other.

Anyway, the SSPX will not be reconciled if, under the local ordinary, it's priests couldn't freely offer the TLM. And they're still holding strong to the revocation of the excommunications of the bishops and the right for any Roman Rite priest to offer the TLM.

Logos Teen

There is a lot more than ritual involved here. We have both lots here in Australia. The Bishops have provided chaplains and the St Peter the Priest Society are here. However we still have the separate group as well.

I am sure that Rome will be very aware of exactly who they will be dealing with and what they consist of.

Teen I believe you mean an Apostolic Administration. A personal prelature is personal not to the Pope but to its prelate whoever that may be i.e. Bishop Javier prelate of Opus Dei. Moreover, if I recall personal prelates must work with local ordinaries whereas Apostolic Administrations are as you said autonomous except for Roman jurdistiction.

Yes, Myles, you're correct. Under an apostolic administration the local ordinary couldn't restrict the offering of the TLM to those priests under that apostolic administration.

I would hazard to say the Society would never even think about putting it's priests under the local ordinary if the bishop could tell them not to offer the TLM.

I wouldn't ever think about it either, frankly!

Logos Teen

Hi,

While few things would give more joy than this schism to be healed, we must understand that for this to happen, hearts need to be truly converted.

I just don't see that happening in the SSPX right now.

I would advise against a corporate re-union just for the sake of it.

The Catholic Church eagerly wants to receive back to her embrace these children who went away if and when they decide to become Catholic again. Not only in name, but in their hearts.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

Funny, how you can judge who is and who is not a Catholic. Are you a Bishop? If so, I am sorry your excellency.

Memo wrote:
This will be a never ending discussion as some believe that Catholicism means regular and absolute administrative submission to the Pope and the local bishops (and somehow these people apply a different criteria to the Orthodox Churches stating that they are somehow part of the Catholic Chuch even though not accepting the supremacy of jurisdiction and other aspects of ther doctrines) so let's avoid it.

Ray wrote:
Memo had some bad experiences with some people affiliated to the SSPX that's why he believes that this group is not nouble hearted and well intentioned.

Now, going back to the discussion. I have talked to French priests from the SSPX here and they believe some of the holy mysteries as offered by the modern RC as not grace-giving, I know that they re-ordain priests, re-chrismate people. It's logical to thing that we're no longer talking about a rite issue.

How would a deal with Rome work if there is such a level of distrust?

The report that follows is not guaranteed.

According to the rumor mill, it would appear that Bishop Williamson is cautiously resisting the terms of the proposed reconciliation, Bishop Fellay is in support of the reconciliation, while the remaining two bishops are wavering. Several points at issue are still being discussed.

Shall watch this with considerable interest.

Incognitus

Catholic World News is reporting that one of the items on the agenda for the February 13 meeting of the Curia with Pope Benedict XVI will be the SSPX.

Till then we do not know Rome's official view.

News story [cwnews.com] .

Amado

Memo,

I know you have history with the Society, but we must emphatically re-state what the Church has already stated: the faithful of the SSPX are fully Catholic and are not in schism.

Depending upon which hierarch you talk to, the SSPX bishops themselves may or may not be in schism. According to JPII it seems they are; according to Cardinal Hoyos it seems they are not. What is for certain is that their status is irregular in one way or another.

And regardless of the views of individual priests regarding grace emanating from Novus Ordo Sacraments, the SSPX does hold that Novus Ordo ordination and chrismations are valid. They condiionally "re-ordain," for lack of a better word, Novus Ordo priests who switch to the SSPX.

Logos Teen

"And regardless of the views of individual priests regarding grace emanating from Novus Ordo Sacraments, the SSPX does hold that Novus Ordo ordination and chrismations are valid. They condiionally "re-ordain," for lack of a better word, Novus Ordo priests who switch to the SSPX."

These two sentences contain a hopeless contradiction. If the SSPX holds that Novus Ordo ordinations are valid, there is no possible justification for a conditional reordination.

Incognitus

Incognitus,

Yes, it seems to contradict. Perhaps the best thing to do is to ask a person more knowlegeable than I to explain this. But I do know that those two facts are true. How they're reconciled, I don't know.

For one, the hands of a Novus Ordo priest are not consecrated and the SSPX takes issue with that. So while they consider the new ordination rite to be "valid," they do consider it sorely lacking, especially when it comes to the consecration of the hands so as to offer the Sacrifice and with the "dumbing down" of the sacrificial nature of the priesthood in the new rite in general.

Logos Teen

Dear Friends,

Speaking of Russian Old Believers (as I was with Incognitus on another thread) this reminds me of what happened when there were some negotiations in Russia between the New and Old Rite parishes.

One Old Rite parish invited a New Rite/Nikonian bishop to visit them.

That bishop thought all was well, but as he left the church, he realized that the Old Rite parishioners were sprinkling Holy Water on the floor behind him as he moved down the aisle . . .

Alex

Hello,

I'd like you to provide sources for such assertion.

The SSPX is in schism, therefore, even if their sacraments remain valid, and their priests are true priests and their bishops are true bishops and their Eucharist is still the Eucharist, that doesn't make them Catholic.

To be a Catholic, you need to be in full, visible with the Apostolic See of Rome, and they are not.

If a member of the faithful, with full knowledge of the current state of communion between the Catholic Church and the SSPX, and with full freedom to make this choice, chooses to declare himself or herself to be in communion with the SSPX, then that person is also declaring NOT to be in communion with the Catholic Church.

Now, let me clarify that merely attending an SSPX mass, or even receiving Communion at that mass might not be enough to alter your ecclesial communion status, for lack of a better term.

And no, I am not a bishop.

And no, I am not talking from a merely human reaction to my experiences with this sect.

I truly, honestly would like to have them back with us, but not merely because their leadership struck a deal with our leadership, rather, because they are willing to accept that the Church has moved forward and that those of us who have been able to move with the Church are in no respect any less faithful than those who want to stick to the old ways.

The Church has shown tremendous leniency towards those who have trouble accepting the legitimate liturgical reforms and towards those who have mistakenly seen a return to the old liturgy as the only way out of the, some times, very valid concerns about liturgical abuse.

But this leniency should be conditioned to good faith and I have a hard time finding this in the SSPX leadership.

We are talking about people fully aware that the Supreme Authority of the Church has approved the liturgical reforms and they still rebel against such approval, not by merely requesting a dispensation to keep the old ways (which the Church has granted), but by actively condemning those who are loyal to the Supreme Authority of the Church.

It is a very sad situation, and it hurts my heart to say it, but that doesn't make it less true: There is no place in the Church for such positions.

You cannot assume that position and pretend you are still Catholic.

It is dishonest.

It would be dishonest to allow you to think we'd agree with something like that.

The Catholic Church wants to heal the schism, but if the SSPX doesn't. Until they do, healing will not come.

Meanwhile, we will keep praying.

Shalom,
Memo

Memo,

Here's a direct quote from His Eminence Cardinal Hoyos:

And another interesting quote from His Eminence on whether the TLM was abrogated:

Logos Teen