www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Anglicans and the Papacy

Charles,

This is the ecclesiastical equivalent of an urban legend that has yet to be demonstrated as having any factual basis.

There are no instances of canonically accepted Orthodox hierarchs having interacted with the Old Catholics or Anglicans in the administration of presbyteral or episcopal orders. It is a recurring fiction most often raised by Catholics seeking to make a point (and among Anglicans and Old Catholics seeking to bolster their arguments of legitimacy, although the latter seldom need to do so) .

Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental, hierarchs who have participated in such ordinations have all been effectively demonstrated to themselves be either self-proclaimed hierarchs or hierarchs who were acting outside the constraints of their legitimate jurisdictional authority - which, by the Cyprianic theory ascribed to by the Orthodox, effectively deprived them of the faculty, jurisdiction, and authority to confect a valid sacramental administration of orders.

Ironically, the Catholic Church, relying on the Augustinian theory, would accord validity, though not licitness, to the acts performed by those who had once been validly recognized as hierarchs by a canonical Orthodox Church.

This whole idea became popular back when Joseph
Rene Vilatte headed East and obtained orders and an episcopal title from a schismatic Jacobite prelate, Metropolitan Antonio Francisco Xavier Alvarez of the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church. Subsequent ordinations and episcopal consecrations by various Eastern hierarchs, both schismatic and self-proclaimed, both Orthodox and Catholic, have indeed muddied the waters of apostolic succession and validity, but at no time has any canonically accepted Orthodox hierarch been effectively documented as having participated in such.

Many years,

Neil

Neil, I can't vouch for whether or not did the ordination or not, since I am not any authority on Orthodox orders, and this was some years ago. But a local Episcopal priest did go East and was re-ordained by a supposedly Orthodox hierarch. It was common knowledge, carried by the local newspaper, and the now retired Episcopal priest still lives here. This much is no urban legend. Also, an Old Catholic Bishop and priest are functioning in this city who claim to have been ordained in the middle east by Antiochian Orthodox hierarchs. It sounds like orders might be a bit chaotic in the middle east, and difficult to verify in terms of validity.

I can't help but wonder what would happen to the ministries of two women Episcopal priests I am aquainted with in Chattanooga if England were to come home to Rome. fine people, but what would happen. As the Episcopal church here continues to fragment, I see such splinter groups as the Anglican Catholics establishing a modus vivendi with Rome, with other groups doing something or another. what I find interesting is the Charismatic Episcopal Church which has a Patriarch(!) as the visible head. I wonder what that's about, and where did he get his consecration. Yeah, it seems that the Latins tolerate a married priesthood for us Eastern Catholics, the Latins can change the celibacy thing anytime, as it is a matter of Canon Law, not dogma. I guess they learned that lesson after the Johnstown exodus to leave us be in this matter. ah, the East, that's where the Sun (Son) rises, not set as it does in the West.
much love,
Jonn

Well, I refuse to call women "priests." I don't really care what the Episcopal Church ordains, but don't go along with messing up a beautiful and descriptive language for the sake of political correctness. :p There is a prominent Catholic family in Knoxville - very wealthy, too - with a daughter who felt called to the priesthood. Since the Catholic Church didn't appreciate the "gifts" she could bring to ministry, she sought ordination in the Episcopal Church. She served in Knoxville at one time, but I don't know whatever happened to her. I don't know what the Episcopalians would do with their priestesses if they reunited with Rome. They seem to veer away a little more each year from Christian doctrine and Tradition, so a reunion seems more and more unlikely - at least with the U.S. Episcopal Church. I could see reunion with some of the more conservative Anglican groups.

Dear Charles,

I too knew a Ukrainian Canadian woman who was doing her Master's in theology and wanted to become a priest in the UGCC!

She wrote a number of articles that were published in our diocesan paper "Our Aim" until it all became too much for the bishop . . .

She was ordained an Anglican priest.

I was in St Alban's Cathedral in England some years back when I had my first encounter with a female Anglican priest.

She wore a black Roman collar and cassock.

I didn't quite know what to say or how to address her . . .

I guess I'm just not used to that sort of thing!


Alex

Charles,

I assure you that Orders are not conferred chaotically or willy-nilly in the Middle East. Antiochian Orthodox hierarchs have no history of ordaining clergy or consecrating bishops not of their own Church, let alone Protestant clergy, regardless of how "High Church" they might be.

I am presuming that the priest of whom you speak is the pastor of Christ the King, which has the singular distinction of having been under the jurisdictional authority of 3 separate hierarchs and as many Churches in 7 years time. It began as a congregation of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, moved to the Charismatic Catholic Church and, finally, to Archbishop Robert Gubala's Old Catholic Church of the US (OCCUS). Along the way, they also had at least a passing relationship with Archbishop Daniel Gincig's American Old Catholic Church.

Frankly, even with the jurisdictional-hopping that is a hallmark of independent "Catholicity"/"Orthodoxy", I can't recollect any other church which can claim that many changes within such a brief timeframe. Last I knew, they had amicably separated from OCCUS and were again searching for an omophor under which to place themselves.

I don't mean to disparage the church or its pastor. But neither he nor the AOCC bishop were ordained in the Middle East, although it is certainly possible that one or both can point to Catholic or Orthodox lines in their presbyteral/episcopal genealogies. Remember, however, the "more is better" premise on which virtually every "independent" operates with respect to assuring themselves of validity for their episcopal ordination.

Some of their lines will be through descent from schismatic or otherwise renegade Catholic hierarchs (Latin, Eastern, Oriental), others from equally estranged Eastern or Oriental Orthodox hierarchs, still others from established Old Catholic lines, and a few from High Church Anglicans. (On average, an independent hierarch claims 30 or more lines of apostolic successionary descent as origins and testament to the validity of his episcopal pedigree.) And, in fact, under the Catholic Church's embrace of the Augustinian theory of validity of orders, many of these individuals might indeed be found to have valid, though illicit, orders.

Bottom line. It doesn't do to make statements suggesting that the proliferation of vagante or, at least, independent clerics and hierarchs have received their orders at the hands of an Orthodox bishop, unless one can point to some specifics. Our Orthodox brethren would likely take offensive at such unsupportd allegations and rightly so.

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

What about some allegations I've read about that Anglicans went into Russia to receive ordination under "economia" and so brought "valid orders" to Anglicanism?

I know an Anglican bishop, now retired in a monastery, who is quite adamant about this.

But I defer to you, Sir!

Alex

Well, I did wonder if maybe some of these folks were ordained by bishops who are at odds with traditional Orthodox jurisdictions. But when someone tells me where his ordination comes from, I usually don't have a way to check it out, especially if it comes from half way around the world. There are plenty of priests in East TN who have some fuzzy ordination backgrounds. There's a Traditional Latin priest near Chattanooga who says he is from the Thuc line. Another group claims to be the "real" Knights of Malta, which the order in Rome disclaims completely. I already mentioned the Episcopal priest in Knoxville. And you know about the Antiochian Catholics (Old Catholics). There must be a magnetic current going through the earth here or something that attracts them.

Alex,

I've heard the stories, I have yet to hear or see specific claims citing names, dates, etc. As the Anglicans have had access to various Old Catholic hierarchs, I'm more than a bit at a loss as to when and why they would have elected to go to Russia, particularly since such stories inevitably suggest that this was done during the time when Communism was in its heyday and survival of the ROC was, at least to some extent, under governmental scrutiny, if not control.

Most claims made by US-based "Old Catholics" of succession through the ROC have focused on the episcopal descendents of Aftimios Ofeish and Sophronios Bishara, as well as a few lesser-known hierarchs. Most of these lines converge in Nils Bertil Alexander Persson. Archbishop Persson, a Swede, is a prominent figure in the "independent" C&O church world.

Also known as Mar Alexander, he is Primate of the Apostolic Episcopal Church and Missionary General for Scandinavia and All Europe for the Iglesia Filipina Independiente (Philippine Independent Catholic Church) and the Igreja Cat�lica Apost�lica Brasiliera (Brazilian Catholic Apostolic Church). (As you can surmise, there is great need for Filipino and Brazilian "independent Catholics" to be represented in Scandinavia and Europe :rolleyes: .)

Many years,

Neil

Charles,

Chicago has always been a gathering spot; California, of course, abounds and Florida is popular also. Arizona and New Mexico have become hotbeds in recent years - you could hold an "independents" convention in Alburquerque any day of the week and fill a small auditorium, just with locals who are "in the scene".

I figure that Chicago's centrality is the draw; California is California; and, the climate in Florida, Arizona, and New Mexico accounts for their popularity. But, you're right, Tennessee has begun to blossom, for some reason that eludes me (no offense to TN intended). Maybe it is a magnetic line .

Many years,

Neil

ps - did I surmise correctly as to the parties of whom you were speaking?

Dear Neil,

If you won't tell anyone, I wanted to say that there was a time when I just didn't know what was "vagante" and what was canonical that I once made the suggestion to a bishop of the former tradition that an icon of "St Aftimios Olfiesh" be written.

And it was . . .

Thanks to me . . .

Alex

Yes and no. I think you are right about the current group if it's the same one I am thinking of, although I haven't had contact with them in some time. But there was another group that has gone out of existence. It called itself Antiochian Catholic also and met at a Lutheran Church. I think one of the draws with East TN is that there is a state University with a main campus in Knoxville and a smaller campus in Chattanooga, along with 2 state 2-year colleges in Knoxville. Also, there are 4 church affiliated colleges within say 50 miles of Knoxville. Higher education seems to attract a diversity of people to an area, and it's no surprise when a few of them are strange. The local RC chancery was helpful on the Thuc line ordination, since they seemed well-informed on that. Believe it or not there was an Eastern Catholic group started by a renegade priest from Canada in the late 80s. Father was a bit light in the vestments, if you get my drift. Fortunately, that one faded rather fast. We now have a thriving mission under the Pittsburgh Metropolia and all connected with it have proper credentials.

Alex,
I have met 3 very excellent Anglican women priests. My experience with them (and friendship with one) has truly made me question my rather smug "anti" stance on women priests. I do see that some women "might" be called to a priestly vocation. Overall, I am pretty neutral on this issue now as before I was quite ferociously against. I like Bishop +Kallistos view that although he is opposed to women priests, he believes that debate should go on in the Church and we should not close ourselves off to the issue as it remains an issue.

P.S. The women priests I have known, I have called "Mother" and my friend of course, I call by her first name

Alex,

I won't tell - promise

I believe that Bishop Aftimios has been "rehabilitated" of sorts - seems to me that he was reinterred at Antiochian Village. Can anyone confirm that? Or was it only Bishop Sophronios?

Many years,

Neil

Dear Neil,

I knew an "independent" Orthodox Catholic bishop who said he was healed of cancer in his hand after he touched St Aftimios' grave.

I also now a similar man who is now a layman in the OCA - who continues to venerate St Aftimios . . .

The independent Synod of Baltimore, as you know, glorified Aftimios and Theophan Noli in 1985.

There are, of course, others, including "St Rene Villatte."

A number of Celtic groups have also glorified "St John Scotus Eriugena" of the ninth century and "St Morgan of Wales" who is, as you likewise know, Pelagius . . .

Alex