www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Pius X Society being regularized?

I doubt that the SSPX will ever formally reconcile with Rome. This is all personal opinion and speculation, of course. But I fear that far too many within both organizations truly do not desire to compromise. On the part of the Roman curia it is a reluctance to be seen to admit error (in either their stance or their handling of the situation). On the part of the SSPX I suspect (though I have no evidence for this) that there is great reluctance to surrender their autonomy and any perceived power held by the Society.

I further suspect that any compromise necessary for reconcilliation would be unacceptable to the laity who support the SSPX. In many that I have met there seems to be an inordinate amount of pride in being "real Catholics" and holding on to the "true traditions" of the Church.

Again - I have nothing but my own gut instincts here. But I would sooner bet on the Roman Catholic Church bringing the Lutherans back into the fold before the SSPX.

I attend a church ministered by a SSPX priest and i can tell you exactly what the Society seeks. This issue is not on the validity of the NO Mass it has to do with it's possible illicitness and definite ambiguity as to what the Liturgy is and that is the continual Sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus.

My personal opinion is that it is almost the same as the Orthodox situtation the only difference is the problem is not the priests now it's parts of the Liturgy itself. I go by the stance that the canons of the Novus Ordo are invalid and hence make the Mass illicit though not invalid. The canons are obviously not apostolic and that is my problem with It.

Is this not the point of Eastern Catholics too; to have a Apostolic Liturgy?

Kyrie eleison
Jonathan

We have the Tredentine Mass provided for with 2 priests in the Archdiocese of Perth who are the chaplains to that rite. We also have the separated group who have their own church. If ritual was the issue they would have closed down and would be attending Mass at the RC church. The Archbishop has made a public statement in the newspapers that he is not in communion with these people and they have no business letting people think they are RCs. I suspect that they will get nowhere and that the core group will like previous groups who have gone off to do their own thing, stay separate. I suspect there are other issues apart from Liturgy that keep these people out of the Church.

I go to the tridentine Mass as much as I can. I love it. I have no problem with the Novus Ordo mass but i prefer the ancient Beatuy of the TLM. I also have been to 2 Divine Liturgies in the past month. One was in english at a Ruthenian Parish. It was nice. The Other was at a Ukranian Church. The Ukranian church was one of the most beatiful churches i Have ever seen. The Divine Liturgy was hard to follow beacuse all of it (including the sermon) was in Ukranian.

BTW as a former Supporter of the SSPX i have nothing but disdain for the organization. The People who go to their masses seem to be mislead and so i hope the come back into full Communion with the Pope.

Catholic News Agency has published another story regarding this subject.

Latest CNA Story [cwnews.com]

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Indeed we cannot refrain from being Catholic, but remember something Memo, "being Catholic" doesn't mean one *has* to celebrate the Pauline liturgy. Celebrating the ancient liturgy of the Roman rite is just as Catholic as celebrating the modern rite.

Second, it was indeed validly and licitly approved. I agree.

But acknowledging that fact doesn't mean one cannot make legitimate and constructive criticisms of that liturgy. Let's remember that part of being Catholic is that we are given canonical rights, one of which is we can, and at times even have the duty, to raise concerns which they believe to be for the good of the Church. Thus, a Catholic may, in good standing, bring up matters of concern about the liturgy if there are felt to be any. The key only is to do it in a spirit of respect and recognition of legitimate authority and in such a way that doesn't deny the faith and morals of the Church.

There are very good arguments out there for real concern over the liturgical reform as it happened, despite its validity and liceity. That someone as prominent as, then, Cardinal Ratzinger would call it "fabricated liturgy" is a big deal. That there was a break in the organic continuity of the liturgy is a big deal. This is but one of a few issues of concern raised by faithful churchmen who celebrate primarily in the modern Roman rite.

Finally, let's remember that taking an approach which privileges one liturgical form over another legitimate form, or even laying open any possibility for it being of a "second class status" is precisely something which has caused some of the problems we've gotten into in the past and in the present both inside the Latin rite and outside it. (Here on this forum of all places there will be an awareness of that.) I believe Pope Benedict, at least as Cardinal, demonstrated a very great openness to this liturgy, and certainly wouldn't see it as second-class whatsoever.

I say all this as one who worships in both the classical and the modern rites -- though with the latter I am firmly in the "reform of the reform" camp.

yes that is it exactly. Why is it that hardly any women at NO Masses cover their heads and even Indult Masses? Why is it that hardly any wear dresses? Why do so many sermons lack any kind of Catholic doctrine? Why is it that Catholics in these Churches pray with known heretics and the like? And all this when not only Sacred Tradition but also the Sacred Scripture says to do the contrary. These are not matters of opinions or options that we can throw away as so many past Pope's have exactly said.
This problem comes from the Liturgy though because the Liturgy is the center of our Faith because the Liturgy IS Christ giving Himself to us.
i'm telling you any observer can see this if he were to study and look at only any two churches one with a NO Mass and one with a Tridentine Mass. You will see by the way the people dress and act and the like that there would seem like more graces being brought down on the church with the Tridentine Mass. And believe me this will become more apparent as the days advance but only if you "watch and pray" as the Gospel says.

Let us ask God through the Blessed Theotokos to bring down on us His Mercy and Grace that we may be saved from this present crisis to enter into Jesus for all eternity!

Kyrie eleison
Jonathan

What I want to know is in regard to the St Josephat Society which is under these SSPX bishops. UGCC clergy who have gone over to them have been excommunicated by the HB Patriach Lubomyr of Kiev. The last thing we need is this division fostered among the Byzantine Catholics by those who want to re introduce Uniatisms that our Church rejects as unsuitable and inappropriate. Having encouraged these disidents and taken them under their wing, whats the plan for them IF they come back to the church.

I think SSPX is a distraction. I think there are enough people hiding in the Tridentine rite we approve that we need to pay attention to. Certainly the Russian centre gets a share of Tridentine rite attenders coming for a look. Not a few don't come back; some didn't like the incorporation of the vernacular, which even orthodox churches here do to some degree, and there is a sense in which the Eastern liturgy has always had the lay participation that the Latin church is trying to get back and some tridentine pople have an issue with. There are certainly a number of people in communion with Rome who are of the view that the language or other issues affect he validity of the mass, which is incorrect. We should address the people in communion with us before we worry about lefebrist groups.

Ned

I have also found that Tredentines dont usually stay very long either. They keep trying to measure everything in terms of their own view of the church or trying to uniatise everything. The worst case I had encountered was they attended the Ukrainian church but they looked down on it and were only there because it was "valid". They drove the Uks mad with their demands and when they had somewhere else to go they were gone in a flash. People still recall them but are pleased they have gone.

Pride, charity, and Vatican II are really the sticking points, and not the Liturgy.

One just has to look at the agreement in Campos with Bishop Rifan (a bishop just for the Traditional Latin Mass), the Fraternity of St. Peter, the Institute of Christ the King, several monastic orders having returned to communion or having received proper permission to say the Old Mass, and many diocesan Indult Masses. All in complete fidelity to their tradition and Rome.

Having taught at an SSPX school back in the 1980s (quite interesting as an Eastern Catholic, let me tell you) I think actually Carole may be right. I don't think the SSPX any longer has the spirit of Archbishop Lefevbre, and had he lived to see the agreement with Bishop Rifan would most certainly have thought that sufficient for reconciliation - a bishop with no obligation to offer the NO in communion with Rome.

And yes, Pavel, the "Society of St. Josaphat" will likely continue to make trouble in those villages regardless of what the SSPX would to do, as in general the SSJ are not much more than a few disgruntled priests who want it "their way" and would be in opposition to anything the RC bishops or Patriarch Lubomyr would direct them to do.
DD

I don't see how reconcilation will possibly take place in the near future, because of the Society's two requests/demands, which are:

1) For Rome to state that the TLM has not been, is not, and can never be abrogated, and that all Roman Rite priests have the right to use it.

2) For Rome to state that the excommunications of the four bishops and +Lefebvre are, in fact, non-existent and never did exist.

These two demands are totally different from what one might expect Rome to possibly offer, which is (1) all Roman priests can say the TLM, and (2) the excommunications are lifted. The SSPX will accept neither of these statements because they imply that priests can be restricted from saying the TLM and implies that there were lawful excommunications in place.

So, unless Rome really wants to embarass herself, she will not grant these two SSPX demands. And we all know the Society's in it for the long haul and probably won't budge.

Logos Teen

Which is why the reunion of the "Two Lungs" will be very far off. No one wants to be embarassed. Both sides want to save face.

I agree in principle with what you say about what your group seeks. as an Eastern Catholic, I feel I must do so, as I support the right of diversity in the Catholic Church as far as liturgy, canon law, and doctrine is concerned. I am haunted by one post referring to a matter of pride, but I wonder if it is really a matter of hurt feelings on the part of some in the Tirdentine community.would I like to see the Tridentines get formal recognition as a "rite" in Holy Mother Church? absolutely! again, it is the principle of the thing. but where an obnoxious hubris exists amongst some Tridentines, they must needs repent. any one is welcome to an Eastern liturgy, and any one in communion in Rome and in fellowship with God may partake of the Holy Mysteries, but no one has the right to "look down their nose" at a Ukrainian or any other recognized liturgy, and grudgingly extend the favor that at least it's a "legitimate" Liturgy, that I will never abide. If the Anglican Catholic Bishops can sit down with His Holiness and seek entrance into the Church (and I wish them every success, I have a close friend of over thirty years standing who is the real enabler of the Anglican Catholic parish in Chattanooga).then I see no problem with Tridentine Bishops doing the same. but they must make the first step, and Rome will make her first step towards reconciliation and reunion. those of the Tridentine community who cannot do this are welcome to go where they will. but we Eastern Catholics cannot tolerate condescension or any other form of disrespect, we have enough of that from those Latins who are in commuunion with the Holy See who just don't get it.
Much Love,
Jonn

Hear hear, Jonn!