www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News ROCOR to join Moscow Patriarchate

The MP has not renounced all jurisdiction, just made an agreement to keep its American churches at "Status quo, and not open new missions.

How that will affect ROCOR is, no doubt, one of the subjects for discussion.

Gaudior, who feels that ROCOR should be allowed to open new missions

We should be very careful not to make accusatory (Ray) or hypothetical (Photius) accusations against canonical Church leaders. This is not a denial of past times when members of our Churches did not always live up to the fullness of the Christian charity expected by Christ. Rather, it is a gesture of good will and brotherly love that can nurture the seeds of healing.

May all those who were martyred at the hands of the Soviet communists intercede before the Lord for a complete healing of the divide that continues to separate us. May they intercede for the forgiveness of the sins of all of us that still contribute to the continued division.

It most seriously does not behoove Catholics to presume to judge who is and who is not a "canonical" Orthodox Church - in the case of the Russian Church Abroad, we might do well to remember that the Church Abroad was the first of the Orthodox Churches to send bishops as observers to Vatican II. Anyone who knows the Church Abroad can testify to the presence of the grace of God in that Church, in ways beyond counting. [And I usually find that horror stories about the Church Abroad somehow never seem to come from first-hand sources - it is imprudent to take "Jim says that Tom says that Dick says that Harry says . . ." accounts at face value.]

A matter of history. Photius remarks that the Church Abroad "was asked to be a founding member of SCOBA, but turned it down only because ROCOR envisions herself as not an American Church". This is not quite complete. The Church Abroad participated in some of the meetings aimed at organizing such a Standing Conference, but withdrew when an invitation was extended to the Moscow Patriarchal Exarchate.

Thanks to Photius for the information on the Serbian Patriarch in Australia.

Incognitus

True! Deacons and priests, however, may not concelebrate at the present time because ROCOR prohibits concelebrating with the Patriarchate of Moscow and her daughter Churches.

Also, BTW, the OCA also has a Monastery named for St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco. It's in Point Reyes Station, CA,; see:
http://www.monasteryofstjohn.org

Photius

PS There are 2 saints named "St. John Maximovich". The one we are speaking of, who reposed in 1966, is kin to the other one, after whom he was named, who was also a bishop.

Dear Photius,

Yes, and my wife is distantly related to both!

Alex

Personally, I contend that there are a few horror stories, such as much that went on at Holy Transfiguration monastery in Boston, which was part of ROCOR for more than 20 years, until ROCOR summoned the abbot and others at HTM to ecclesiastical court, which HTM refused to do, and anathematized ROCOR and drifted into the land of vagrant bishops.
And the Greek Old-calanderist fiascoes, which ROCOR just totally renounced in preparation for reestablishing communion with Moscow.
Thanks for bringing this up ... my memory failed me in the details. What you state is correct.
FYI, see:
http://www.rocor.org.au/
Select "News" from the list on the left of the page; then search for these two links:
His Holiness Patriarch Pavle's visit to Australia concludes - photo-report
(Before the dash is a link to text; after the dash is a link to photos)
[QUOTE][QB]

Photius

Dear Photius,
My thanks to you, in the first place, for confirming the accuracy of the detail I added to your report. In the second place, but still way up there on the list of gratitude, my thanks for that lovely web-site and directions to find the photographs. I plan to make good use of it (I am thoroughly exhausted with people trying to tell me how uncanonical the Church Abroad supposedly is).
Speaking of such, my previous comment did not take into account Fr Panteleimon or the group around him - their behaviour was never typical of the Church Abroad. I regret very much their amazing closed-mindedness, and I'm inclined to think that the ultimate debacle had much to do with it. Had they developed a much closer relationship with Jordanville it would have been well for Boston.
As with so many thinks, I simply don't know. I follow the Old Calendar, and I love Greece. But there is something about the combination that seems destructive. Fr Panteleimon always denied the charge, but I (and others) still suspect a variety of donatism.
But I digress. Hope Pentecost was lovely for you; it certainly was here.

fraternally in Christ,

Incognitus

Dear Incognitus,

Greetings. Thank you for teaching me a new term.

Donatism


(dn�tzm) (KEY) , schismatic movement among Christians of N Africa (fl. 4th cent.), led by Donatus, bishop of Casae Nigrae (fl. 313), and the theologian Donatus the Great or Donatus Magnus (d. 355). The schism arose when certain Christians protested the election of the bishop of Carthage, charging that his consecration by Felix, bishop of Aptunga, was invalid because Felix was considered a traditor (i.e., one who turns over sacred books and relics to the civil authorities during a persecution). Condemnation was extended to all in communion with Felix. Behind their objection lay the heresy, familiar to Montanism and Novatian, that only those living a blameless life belonged in the church, and, further, that the validity of any sacrament depended upon the personal worthiness of the priest administering it. The Donatist practice of rebaptizing was particularly abhorrent to the orthodox. Condemned by the Synod of Arles (314) and also by the Roman emperor, Constantine I, the Donatists seceded (316) and set up their own hierarchy. By 350 they outnumbered the orthodox Christians in Africa, and each city had its opposing orthodox and Donatist bishops. It was the teaching of St. Augustine, as presented in his writings and at the debate between orthodox and Donatist bishops at Carthage (411), that turned the tide against Donatism. Strong state suppression and ascetic excesses among some of their own members further reduced their number. The remnants of the schismatic movement had vanished along with African Christianity before the advent of the Islamic invaders.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright � 2004 Columbia University Press.

Now I have to learn more about Montanism and Novatian. This is what I love the most about this forum!

In Christ,

Michael

The Admin was correct that I could have been more charitable in my response. I don't have time to right now to give a detail response on ROCOR and I wrote my response in haste last night.

Please accept my apology.

Dear Ray you said:

"Please accept my apology."

I say:

To apologize to another for one's own lack of charity means that one is aware of one's own limitations.

It also means that one has the 'strength' to humble oneself. Both the 'self awareness' and 'strength' are gifts given by God. So you are truly blessed.

In Christ,

Zenovia

May I respectfully point out that this has not always been the case. In ancient and medieval times, it was often unclear who was in communion with whom, whether or not one of the parties was the Roman Church. In 1055, was Antioch in communion with Rome? I'm sure no one knows ... if clerics of the two jurisdictions came into contact, they probably would not have been aware of what happened the previous year, and even if they were, they would likely have decided for themselves how to act, since getting a patriarch's opinion could have taken months.

Even in the 19th Century, Fr. Alexis Toth, then a Byzantine Catholic priest, was denied facilities by the local Roman catholic bishop who considered Fr. Alexis not Catholic; Father Alexis appealed to Rome and never received a reply, and eventually became Orthodox so he could function as a priest and so his congregation could have the Holy Sacraments. On paper, he was a Catholic, but in practice, he was not.

In the Orthodox Church, hypothetical questions are not answered until there is a need, in a real situation, to address them. Personally, if pressed to answer if Catholic priests are "really" priests, I would simply answer that I do not know; God knows. When received into the Orthodox Church, whether or not re-ordained, they definitely are. This satisfies me and is quite consistent with ancient ecclesiology. Interestingly, much the same concept has been developed in quantum physics with uncertainty, e.g., Schoedinger's cat.

Back to work for me,
Type to you later,
Photius

Dear Daniel,

I concur with Photius!

In actual fact, I find the Vatican II documents on the Church and the external this or that to be a confusing mish-mash about Protestantism, who can be saved among the various non-Christian religions.

I once read a booklet by a priest who talked about how tree-worshippers can be saved etc.

I'm sure they can, but I think the writer was barking up the wrong one when he tried to somehow bring this into a systematic view . . .

Perhaps it was his way of branching out his understanding of Soteriology . . .

I never could understand the roots of that issue.

Alex

Uh ... this faction has already existed for several years, having split off from ROCOR over the prospect of rapprochement with the Moscow Patriarchate.

There is a good article giving the history and links to ROCOR, ROCE, and ROAC at:
http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_008_ROCOR.htm

(The ROAC sites are in Russian only; they are in Russia only [excepting a single priest; see:
http://www.russianorthodox-roac.com/Ordain/Priest.html ] and are basically members of the erstewhile catacomb Church that split off from ROCOR over the same issues that ROCE did.)

I'll just make my position clear so that no one has any doubt: at this time, I am against the reunion of the ROCOR with the Moscow Patriarchate.

That being said, the post above was worded in an imprecise manner. First of all, "vagrant" is not the term I believe the poster is thinking about; vagante would be more precise. Vagante bishops are ones with no sees who stem from Anglo-Catholicism and assorted 19th century movements, and who believe that apostolic succession is passed on from hands to heads without reference to the ecclesiastical community.

Greek Old Calendarist bishops are not vagantes in any sense of the term, as the two movments have nothing in common. There are vagantes who pretend to be Greek Old Calendarists, but they are rather small and of no real concern. The group that HTM joined was certainly not vagante, but I would say was schismatic, since it did not belong to the canonical Greek Old Calendarist Church, the Synod of Archbishop Chrysostomos II.

In regards to ROCOR breaking communion, it has not done so in regards to the Greek Old Calendarist Church; the Synod of Greek Old Calendarists that ROCOR is in communion with (whom I do not believe are the canonical synod) sent ROCOR a letter in October telling them that if they join union with the MP, THEY will break communion with ROCOR. In response, ROCOR suggested that they seek reconciliation with the State Church of Greece. When the MP ROCOR union happens, the ROCOR GOC union will be over.

The idea that the Old Calendar movement is a fiasco is thrown around oftentimes and for good reason--there are certainly some really problematic people in the Greek Old Calendar Church. But then again, like any Church, that is not the majority of the people and the Greek Old Calednarist Church has many positive elements, which I very much appreciate. Calling it a fiasco and dismissing it with a few lines is not productive and gives a false image of the Greek Old Calendarist Church.

Anastasios

Actually if you look at http://www.russianorthodox-roac.com/Directory.html you will see that the ROAC has much more than one priest in America since the ordination of Father Dionysi. You are right that the ROAC in Russia and former CIS countries is mostly made of catacomb churches that broke communion with ROCOR-L over the issue of ROCOR and the MP. ROCOR did give ROAC their hierarchy however.

In Christ,
Deacon Nikolai