www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Slavonic vs Latin hymns sung before/after LIturgy

Are you talking about my "Voshel jesi"?

Actually, I enjoyed the Pinkham Cantata (reminded me of Stravinsky), and have performed in some of his works with flute, but he's definitely not congregational singing material.

Last week, we celebrated the feast of The Exaltation of The Holy Cross. I thought the Western hymn, 'Lift High the Cross' would've been perfect for the feast. What's wrong with finding the best music out there for a particular feast? Oregon Catholic Press has some great hymnals of traditional Catholic hymns.

I don't think you are getting the point Wolfgang, not getting the point at all.

Wolfgang, hymns whose music is from the prostopinije chant of the carpatho-rusyn tradition is generally what folks are hoping for here, IMHO. Some parishes don't use slavonic any more, but can still maintain authentic music as part of efforts to restore traditions that had been sidetracked because of latin influences. The difficulty is in finding appropriate lyrics, then appropriate music already published. And how much work does a person want to do to make it happen?

Wolfgang, I like this hymn very much, but it is really not appropriate for an Eastern church to sing Western hymns. However, thank you for reminding me of one of my favorite hymns - now I will have something to hum all the way home tonight!

Hello, everybody!

This is one of my newest compositions entitled, "Today, the Cross is Raised on High". I hope that it may be of prayerful use to you.

Ray

SEPTEMBER 14
FEAST OF THE UNIVERSAL EXALTATION
OF THE PRECIOUS AND LIFE-GIVING CROSS

Sung to the melody of:
�How Great is God � Kol� Slaven Na�"


Today, the Cross is raised on high
exalted for the whole world to see!
We are joyous because of Its finding;
let all the people sing out with glee:

Refrain:
|| : Save us, O Lord and bless Your people!
Shield and protect our Church and community. : ||

Today, the Cross is raised on high
on which our Lord was crucified.
We prostrate now and reverence It dearly
because of It our souls are purified.

Today, the Cross is raised on high
through this wood redemption has come.
Death is destroyed; its power is broken
Life reigns once more, the battle is won.

Today, the Cross is raised on high
It shines brightly throughout the sky.
Angelic hosts surround it with beauty
While those on earth do praise and magnify.

Today, the Cross is raised on high;
Saint Helen sings in jubilee.
The whole Church: both East and West
celebrates this day with festivity.


Lyrics by:
Raymond J. Mastroberte
Feast of the Holy Cross - 2004
Revised: 2005

Just one correction...
Second stanza says...."because of It our souls are purified."
Please change "purified" to "sanctified."

I think this a better word.

Ray

Lots of good reading and idea-sharing on this topic, and I have been moved to share my humble opinion on this topic.

Cantor Petach's point about the use of Latin in the Van Nuys Cathedral is a valid one. If the use of the Vernacular vs. a Liturgical Language is the encouraged practice in the Eparchy of Van Nuys, then it would seem that the use of Latin Hymns during the Divine Liturgy makes little sense - unless, of course, there are people who speak Latin attending services at our Cathedral!

My thoughts on the use of Liturgical Language are somewhat similar to those expressed by the Administrator in his post. If you are singing in a parish where the people 1) HAVE the Slavonic Words to the Hymn; 2) KNOW and CAN PARTICIPATE in the Slavonic rendition of the Hymn; and 3) HAVE THE DESIRE to sing in Church Slavonic - then, by all means, keep it as a "spice" in the ministry of Liturgical Music.

Keep in mind - just like adding "spice" to a soup - everyone's tastes are different and knowing your parish's "taste" is key.

Liturgical Language - whether Slavonic in our Church or Latin in the Western Church - should never be a barrier to congregational engagement and participation in worship.

Finally, on the subject of hymns in general, I am perplexed by the recent trend to arrange new lyrics to existing hymn melodies in an effort to "enhance" the repertoire of our Church.

Rather than arrange another set of lyrics to existing music, why not draw on the beautiful melodies and hymnography that can be found in the Propers for Matins & Vespers for each Feast?

There is no need to re-invent the wheel, as the Church Fathers have provided well for all of us. The beautiful (and, often, scriptural-based) lyrics of these Stichera combined with the rich elements of our plain chant are relatively easy to teach to the people.

Furthermore, by teaching these to the congregation (as opposed to yet one more version of "Pod Tvoj Pokrov"), you are enabling them to more fully participate in the Prayer Life of our Church because you are imparting knowledge that can be applied during community celebrations of Matins & Vespers.

JKF

Because the creation and use of paraliturgical hymnography is a venerable tradition of the churches in western Rus' and among all the Eastern Christians living in and around the Carpathians. It's wonderful that this tradition is being maintained here in the US.

Your point about the hymnography of Vespers and Matins is valid, though. However, I don't think you need to pit one against the other. The proper place for propers is in the Divine Services. If they're not being done, then why not sing a few stichera, and then sing a popular hymn? There is a lot of flexibility in this area.

Dave

I'm all for singing Slavonic hymns in English when available. It seems, however, that there aren't very many. I was at the cathedral in Parma for the feast of The Holy Cross and we sang a Lenten dirge, which did not fit in a joyous feast. 'Lift High the Cross' would've been been more appropriate, because it is a joyous hymn.

Hmmmm. To me, that's another of that "Latin" thinking; that if the feast mentions the cross, then it MUST be penitential, rather than a glorious celebration of salvation through the ressurection of Christ. Sometimes, just the way(manner) even joyous compositions are sung can make them dirge-like. :rolleyes:

While there is often a dilemma over what to sing at the beginning or end of Liturgy, there are hymns and compositions (that are more appropriate the using overtly Western material) in our tradition. The point I have been attempting to make is that rather than falling back on Western (Latin) hymns because we don't want to do a little research, we should be looking for true solutions.

JKF makes a good point about using stichera from vespers or matins. This would seem more relevant for parishes that rarely celebrate vespers (or matins) for feasts.

Though if the cantor (or parishioners) aren't comfortable with that, then using the hymn verses appropriate to the feast, set to familiar melodies, would probably accomplish more than tossing in more (Latin) influence into the Liturgy.

Just My two cents,

Steve Petach,
who is temporarily in the land of Pittsburgh, PA

Point well taken, Dave. I would agree that there is a lot of flexibility in this area and that you do not need to pit one practice vs. the other.

Personally, I'd actually like to see more effort placed to take the traditional paraliturgical hymns (today only captured in some "old country" hymnals or in people's memories) translated into English with the appropriate work done to re-arrange the melodies to fit the accents of the new text.

I tend to like a little bit more variety, rather than having 12 sets of lyrics arranged to the melody for "We Thank You God Most High."

--> JKF

There is also a lot of power and value to "prayerful silence," and I don't believe that a Cantor needs to feel compelled to fill every second of the Divine Liturgy with sound.

Besides the suggestions I made in my original response, I happen to like the "Polyeleos" Psalms as a Hymn during the Great Incensation.

The melody is easy for the people to follow, and places a nice emphasis on the fact that we are gathered to "Praise the Lord from the Heavens."

--> JKF

Glory to Jesus Christ!

In response to CantorJKF's postings:

The "Lectionary Hymns" were developed to orient the faithful (pun intended <G>) to the Liturgy of the Word in which they are about to take part.

(1) They utilize the Gospel and Epistle of the day according to the Byzantine Lectionary and
(2) they almost always make use of hymn melodies already in the repertory of the Byzantine Catholic faithful.

Where they are being utilized (in about fifteen parishes, to my knowledge, across the Metropolia), the pastors have expressed enthusiasm for the "connections" that the faithful make with the Scripture readings for the day. Part of their usefulness is in the recognition of the melody by the faithful, which obviates the need for pre-service rehearsal of the hymn.

In the Cathedral in Munhall (for example), there are two celebrations of the Divine Liturgy on any given weekend: one on Saturday at 6:30 p.m., and one on Sunday at 9:00 a.m. Before the Saturday DL, the Lamp-lighting Psalms with the appointed stichera are sung, concluding with the Hymn of the Evening. Before the Sunday DL, the Psalms of Praise are sung, concluding with the Great Doxlology. Both of these are timed to end 5 minutes before the start of the service, which gives time to make any brief announcement for the service. When the Great Incensation of the church is being made, we sing the Lectionary Hymn.

In reference to the larger body of para-liturgical hymnody available from Rusyn and Galician sources: yes, it would be good to make decent translations of these hymns and to make them available for our faithful to learn. With the advent of the Faithful's Book (and the revision of the chant), most parishes will have their plates full. New hymnody (at least, new melodies for para-liturgical hymnody) will not be seen as a priority right now.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA