www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Slavonic vs Latin hymns sung before/after LIturgy

Jim,

Since it seems everyone is avoiding the Kliros forum perhaps my post in the cantor introductions should be deleted. I should withdraw from the forum as it seems my posting is more a detriment than an asset to the discussions.

That said, one last post,

*****WARNING****** this post is MY OPINION, please don't make a flame war out of what is "perceived" as facts within the following.


After enduring another Sunday with one of our other cantors singing "Ave Maria" in Latin at the beginning of Liturgy AND during communion( ), while I am not allowed to sing any Slavonic hymns kinda got me riled. Makes me wonder why I bother to be a cantor.

Out here in Van Nuys Eparchy, where Slavonic seems to be a forbidden language, on several instances at various parishes I have witnessed Latin hymns sung ,in Latin, before during or after liturgies. It seems that Latin is allowed and Slavonic is NOT? With the apparent emphasis on removing Latinization within the Byzantine (Rusyn) Catholic Church there seems to be a strong tendency to ignore this use of Latin hymns as an overt (and ultimate form of) Latinization.

While much has been written and debated here about whether parishes use Slavonic, or wish to use more Slavonic etc, little has been noted of the use of Latin hymnody. How widespread is this tendency toward using Latin hymns in worship? I have no gripe against Latin except when it displaces our heritage. I FEEL THAT Latin has its place in the Western Mass, but does NOT have a place in the Byzantine Catholic (Rusyn) liturgical worship!!!!!

Steve Petach,
Cantor, (1of4 cantors) Cathedral of St Mary, Van Nuys, CA.

I think the preferred language should be the vernacular. Otherwise the tradition liturgical language can be used at appropriate times, and that would be Slavonic in the BC, or perhaps Greek in the Italo-Albanian parish in Las Vegas.

But the substitution of Latin is a travesty and an abuse, if you are outraged I wouldn't be surprised. The pastor ought to forbid it, and if he is unwilling to, then His Grace bishop William Skurla should take an action on this.

All I can say beyond this is that if the church is unwilling or unable to correct this problem, it furnishes just one more example of why the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic church is in general decline in North America.

+T+
Michael

Steve,

Might I offer a few thoughts?

On the Slavonic issue, it seems to me that the best way to continue its use in places where it does not seem welcome is to use it as a seasoning. One hymn in Slavonic together with the same hymn in English should not be a problem. I judge the amount of Slavonic I use based upon the congregation that is present. If you concentrate on hymns that the older folks know and know well, maintaining some Slavonic should not be a problem. If you are singing hymns that no one knows, that they don�t have the words for, and are singing them all by yourself then you must either provide the words and music (to make it possible for them to join in) or stop singing them. Nothing is worse than a cantor singing something in Slavonic that the people don�t know and don�t have the words to.

Hymns from the Latin tradition such as you describe should be frowned upon, especially such hymns as �Ave Maria�. Hymns sometimes come to us from the West through the American context (such as Christmas carols) but one should work to prevent the general importation of hymns like �Ave Maria�.

It seems to me that the road ahead here must start with questions to determine the facts of the matter.

Are hymns like �Ave Maria� being sung through the effort of a well-meaning but uneducated cantor of the parish? If yes, meet with the pastor and ask him to politely and quietly educate the well-meaning but uneducated cantor.

Are these hymns being introduced through the effort of a well-meaning but uneducated priest? If yes, meet with him quietly and discuss the matter with him, referencing Bishop William�s quietly spoken directives that we stick with those hymns that belong to our tradition and that Marion hymns are not to be sung during Communion. If the priest, for some reason, has purposely chosen to advocate such latinizations, then ask him to give you a blessing to discuss the matter with the Bishop.

Your bishop is available via telephone and e-mail. Just remember to approach him in a non-confrontational way. Also, approach him not just with the problem but also with at least one solution to the problem.

Admin

Actually now Communion is one of the few times I can go back over to the kliros analoy and sing as I have already received Communion and have a temporary liturgical reprieve from "deaconing".

I started years ago alternating hymns in English and Slavonic where I could get away with it. At Communion we sing each hymn through in English, two verses, and then again in Slavonic, using two or three different hymns with alternating two verses English, two Slavonic until Communion is completed.

If either a Panakhyda or Polychronion are sung, we always sing "Vichnaja Pamjat" or "Mnohaja Lita" as appropriate in Slavonic at the conclusion as well.

I have to cense and begin "deaconing" at the beginning of Liturgy so there aren't any Slavonic hymns at that point anymore, and now often none at that point at all as we sometimes go right from the Hours or an Akathist to the beginning of the Divine Liturgy.

Steve,

I don't think you have caused anyone to be discouraged from posting on Kliros. If anyone has done that, it would be me, because of my determination not to let it become a place to simply vent frustrations without offering ways to improve dilemmas.

I have seen the problem of Marian hymns used in other parishes, but they were mostly eliminated from our worship services in Gilbert once we started doing the Third Hour prior to Divine Liturgy. Our Divine Liturgy begins immediately after the Third Hour, without a pause. Third Hour starts about 9:45 a.m. Perhaps encouraging the introduction of the Third Hour would result in making the problem moot, instead of having to deal with it headon, at least as far as prior to Liturgy is concerned.

Our only exception is that we occasionally use one of the Marian hymns during the censing of the church prior to a weekday Liturgy. There is a need for a hymn to be sung during the censing, and there are very few appropriate alternative hymns in the liturgy book itself. And there is also a need for everyone to have a copy of whatever we are going to sing.

As for communion hymns, I introduced a Roumanian Catholic communion hymn this summer, "I Will Lift Up My Eyes to Heaven", but it has been slow to catch on. (We have several Roumanian Catholics in our parish, including a retired priest.) We printed it on card stock, available for use as parishioners enter the nave. Of course, if they don't pick it up, they don't have it when the comes time to sing it.

In a few weeks we will be introducing 2 more communion hymns, one of which is familiar within the OCA. One is "Receive the Body of Christ", the other is "Of Your Mystical Supper". Both are consistent with our beliefs and very singable. I hope they will catch on. I formatted them for reproduction after downloading them from other websites, and they will be produced on card stock for use at worship. Over time, the use of a card stock supplement has become a regular item for our parish.

As to Slavonic, we have perhaps a half dozen parishioners who would like some, according to Father. I have approached him more than once about introducing Slavonic, but he is not interested, because of the number of people who would be left out of the loop culturally. He believes that it will only cause problems where there aren't any currently. Interested parishioners have not successfully made their case with Father, either, which ends the matter, for the time being.

So, generally speaking, we are only using hymns in the back of the liturgy book in English during communion, but have eliminated hymns, Latin and Slavonic, from worship, unless you regard the hymns at the back of the book as latinizations. Instead, we are focusing on restoring the traditional services of the Church as Pope John Paul II had wanted us to do. I can see using additional tropars for communion as well, but it is necessary for people to have a source they can easily refer to, to sing along. An official hymnal would be nice, provided you go along with the idea of using hymns in addition to tropars, etc.

I'm sorry for the frustration over these issues, but there is also a need to touch bases with the "proper authorities", as our Administrator suggested in his post, then to act accordingly. Being pragmatic is sometimes the only way to go, IMHO. No doubt not everyone will agree with me on that, but maybe I have offered some ideas above that could be useful. I hope so.

As to the amount of threads, etc. on Kliros itself, I figure things are shaking out over time, and a general consensus of what can be obtained here is developing. It takes time. I personally have found Kliros helpful in networking for information I need as a cantor, and that is reward enough for me in itself, so far.

Jim Sprinkle, Cantor
St. Thomas BC Church, Gilbert, AZ

From what I understand you can't find a Roman Catholic Church that sings those hymns. In fact, I understand besides EWTN you will not find a parish that sings Latin.

So, why in the world would your Church sing Latin hymns in Latin? Are there many Traditional Catholics escaping the Novus Ordo in your Church?

I would certainly hope an Orthodox hymn would be - if not I do not think it is the problem of the Orthodox.

Both "Receive the Body of Christ" and "Of Your Mystical Supper" are wonderful hymns, and catch on very quickly. I have used these with the accompanying OCA music as is. But Jim brought up a couple of points worthy of consideration, i.e. checking with the pastor to make sure he is on board.

And, like his situation, there are pastors who do not want to reintroduce Slavonic where it has completely fallen into disuse. In our parish we still have first-generation folks as well as some newer immigrants who attend occasionally. However, if it is done as we do in our parish, i.e. the verses sung first in English and then the exact same verses then sung alternately in Slavonic, I don't see the cultural disconnect as a serious problem.

I forgot!

We have NO hymns in Latin whatsoever in my parish, and I would suggest taking the matter to the rector, assuming he is open to discussing such things. (Each parish is different as to how it handles the restoration of genuine traditions.)

Only today I had a conversation about the arrangement of the "Our Father" we are using, versus the one our retired cantor taught from memory. They are different, but based on the same music. All I could say was that, overall, the parish has successfully shifted to reading music which is eliminating the issue. I could introduce a different "Our Father", but Father is loathe to do that at present. It could come to that, though.

Like I said, each parish is different as to how it can handle changes.

Dear Steve:

You've gotten some great advice. I will add some that is not as nice. As a youth, with a choir of high school singers, I sang a movement Pinkham's Christmas cantata - which btw us has a Latin text. A number of parishioners made it unmistakably clear to me that this was a terrible gaffe. That feedback was enough to put me on the right path. Aversion therapy works.

Your fellow cantor might think that classics of the musical literature should be OK. It's hard to resist the Bach Chorales, and masterpieces of the Western literature. But some very strong feedback is needed here. We have our own collection of music, in which there are many treasures to be found, and whose practice is our responsibility. For an thoughful singer that is looking to avoid tired, almost cliche pieces, our musical collection is fascinating.

IMO, this preference not only applies against music from the West, but also against other music the East. I enjoy many settings of "Receive the Body" from the OCA, but our Carpatho-Rusyn Cherubicon settings work beatifully as communion hymns with this text. I recall Sokol's numbers 4, 8, and 11 used with this text - the latter one I've seen in OCA books. Please consider these first, Jim. Introducing these tunes as communion hymns makes it easy to introduce them eventually in the liturgy.

DJS, I didn't grow up with Slavonic, but first became acquainted with eastern liturgical music while in the OCA, where Slavonic was used occasionally, but more especially around Pascha.

When my wife and I were received into the Byzantine Catholic Church, and I began assisting at the kliros, there were a number of people who graciously volunteered music for consideration for use, but there are precious few English hymn settings appropriate for use during the receiving of communion itself. Our parish uses English only, and the materials we have we are in English already.

When you say "cherubicon settings", are you referring to additional cherubic hymn settings already in English? Because of the limited number of cherubic hymn settings within the green book, we only use them for the Great Entrance. And what source do you use for the Sokol settings you refer to? We do introduce communion hymns from the green book, but those are the ones that occur just before "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord". Music settings for those incorporate music in use in the cherubic hymn settings as well. Is that what you are referring to? (I'm trying to make sure we are talking about the same thing.) Our parish sings hymns throughout the communion of the laity, sometimes 5 or 6 different ones, before the priest returns to the altar- Let Me this Day, I Do Believe, This New Commandment, and so on.

As far as preferring our own material to those of other jurisdictions is concerned, if there were more of it readily available in English I wouldn't necessarily be hunting across jurisdictional lines for additional material, but our church community also consists of eastern christians from multiple jurisdictions. So, it is helpful to represent their heritage sometimes, just as the Orthodox do, with pan-Orthodox services that include multiple jurisdictions of their own.

In time there will be more hymns in print available for general use. There apparently are limited resources available for producing such things.

Jim, I am grateful for your work, and hope that you don't mind that I made a suggestion to you. Important point. And how hard this was in the pre-PC, pre-internet era. (One reason that some Western hymns seeped in.) But now, between MCI, Patronage in Baltimore, St. Michael's in Binghamton, and some selections at podoben.org immediate access has greatly improved.

This, of course, gives a different twist to what is best for your parish.

Yes I am refering to the practice of using Cherubicon music for the communion hymns.
Sokol is on line at Patronage Baltimore (as is Papp, and Bokshaj). Any of the Cherubicon melodies would work for a seting of "Receive the Body...", and the ones I've noted above I have seen/heard for use when "Receive..." is used, at certain feasts, as the "communion hymn" within the liturgy, before "Blessed is He".

I suppose, btw, that there are rubrical issues to consider; someone beter educated on these points may share their thoughts. Since "Receive..." is a "communion hymn" in the liturgy (before Blessed is he...) for feasts, is it proper to use it as a hymn during communion at ordinary times?

"Only today I had a conversation about the arrangement of the "Our Father" we are using, versus the one our retired cantor taught from memory. They are different, but based on the same music. All I could say was that, overall, the parish has successfully shifted to reading music which is eliminating the issue."

Not entirely as it turns out. We are going back to the retired cantor's way of doing the Our Father next Sunday.

DJS, thanks for your additional information.

Our parish uses our Administrator's changeable propers leaflets on Sundays, and some feasts. There are sometimes multiple communion hymns in them, but not enough for use throughout communion itself. Whatever we do use during communion is printed and available for all congregants to sing in unison in English. So, we introduce different music every few months, printed for everyone, which is used every Sunday until the next supplement. (This is in addition to the hymns in the Liturgy book itself.) It IS easier to use existing settings, or to tweak them, rather than it to start with a source melody and decide on a verse to use with it. THat's harder work.

Each parish has its own constraints, I guess.

Jim:

You were a music performance major! What I am suggesting might be hard for some, but for you its should be relatively easy and< I would think, very gratifying.

DJS, Performance is one thing; Theory and Composition, another. I have never felt rewarded or justified by my efforts at writing music per se. Good delivery is what performance is about, however, even to the point of making a lousy piece of music sound good. Besides, it is not my work but God's through me; I am not called to write hymn settings myself. Others are, of course.