www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros Slavonic vs Latin hymns sung before/after LIturgy

I recently purchased a copy of the 1967 Presov hymnal that Fr. Jack Custer made available from the seminary's library. Many of the hymns are in use within the metropolia in English. Has anyone translated the rest?

While flipping through the channels the other night, I came across a somewhat reversed scenario. I caught the Entrance Procession of EWTN's Daily Mass, during which the choir was singing something in a familiar melody. After a second, I realized that the melody was Russian Obikhod Tone 6. I don't know what they were singing exactly, but this might be a case of Latins using Slavonic hymns.

Dave

That would be VERY unusual - and very cool!

While visiting a large R.C. church in Phoenix a few months ago, I was flipping through their very large and supposedly "inclusive" new hymnals. They certainly did include a lot of Protestant hymns, and a lot of Spanish hymns, and even a few Latin hymns - but not ONE even remotely Eastern hymn.

Which made me kinda wonder - if you can include the "Madre de Dios", why not also the "Theotokos"?

Steve--#928
I am a Roman Catholic officially converted to Byzantine Catholic,some 20 yrs ago. It is necessary to have a Cantor follow suggestions by his Pastor in the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. I don't do anything Slavonic because 1. I don't know it. 2. Parishioners here(majority) don't know it either. 3. Not condoned by the Pastor. It is a fact--Marian hymns, are not used during Communion--in Slavonic or Latin or English or any other language. I am in the Van Nuys Eparchy,too and I am confused how the "Ave Maria" in Latin can be sung in a BYZANTINE CATHOLIC CHURCH. I hope it has ceased to exist by now(I am late in responding to the 09-04-05 post).Big John

I've had my ears assaulted by such dubious gems as Gounod's Ave Maria and the Panis Angelicus in, would you believe, Greek Orthodox churches more than once.

Incognitus

Nowadays most of the music in use in my parish is Ruthenian. But, I'm not necessarily a believer in political correctness. Now and then I'll introduce a setting that is Ukrainian, Roumanian, or Russian. If I do, they are usually communion hymns. The texts are consistent with our beliefs, of course, and may only be different musically. We have parishioners from many ethnic backgrounds, and it is good to help them feel at home, even in such a small way, when I can.

Since we are all Americans, however, I am also a little skeptical about the desire to exclude all settings of Byzantine texts that are not set to Ruthenian music. It can get a little xenophobic after a while. For example, I remember my first Christmas in an OCA parish, where I didn't recognize a single Christmas hymn, except Silent Night. When I asked the choir director about maybe using "Carol of the Bells", she said they couldn't use that- it's Ukrainian! It sounded like a derogatory term. That's the danger I see in going too far in an effort to save the heritage- the building of a wall of distrust that can go with it.

Jim,

I do not agree with your opinion of non- exclusive use of Subcarpathian-Rusyn Prostopinije (in English) in the parishes of the Ruthenian Metropolia. If the parishes that have the childern, grandchildern and great-grandchildern DO NOT PERPETUATE their distinct ancestral liturgical expression, who will? Do the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Rusyn-Americans of the OCA ever here Rusyn Prostopinije? I seriously doubt it.

If we don't preserve our liturgical plainchant tradition, nobody is going to do it for us!

Long live Prostopinije!!

Ungcsertezs

Restoring and maintaining prostopinije are both part of our worship. I simply do not see it as an either/or situation, one where there is always one right answer and one wrong answer, when it comes to the music that is used. There are almost always shades of grey that have to be accomodated to some degree- part of our being imperfect beings who strive for perfection. St. Paul points out how we are at different levels of awareness spiritually- the passage about the man taken up to a level of heaven, which Paul had not experienced. We are perfect, but we are a work in progress. Some older parishes have more trouble with change and variety than others, I guess.

Jim, that is your opinion. Many do not share your particular view on this subject.

Ungcsertezs

In an effort to help expand the use of indigenous Byzantine Catholic music, I obtained a 1968 Presov Greek Catholic hymnal, figuring we might be able to expand the repertoire of communion hymns. But, there is no one in our parish who can translate the hymns into English, and only 3 or 4 who know how to pronounce Church Slavonic. (Actually, as nearly as we could determine, the hymnal is a combination of Slovak and Church Slavonic, not just Church Slavonic.) So, I am hoping that eventually a source elsewhere will be able to translate the ones that are not in our Levkulic liturgy book already.

FYI

There is source material of this nature readily available. When Mr. Jerry Jumba assisted the Archeparchial Chant Renewal Program (1984-93),a great wealth of "additional" Prostopinije liturgical hymns and liturgical music, IN ENGLISH, was collected and distributed. Mr. Jumba collected an extensive collection that is STILL used by many parishes and cantors of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia. Write or e-mail Mr. Jumba, and he can get you this additional music which has been available for years. His e-mail address is:

JerryJumba@aol.com

I am certain Jerry will accommodate your request.

LLSRP!

Ungcsertezs

The Presov hymnal was published with diocesan official approval in Slovakia in 1968. Its musical contents are similar to what is commonly in use in the Metropolia, but there are additional hymns (See Fr. Custer's comments ealier in this thread), texts as well as music, that could increase the variety of material available for use, especially during communion where hymn-singing remains a common practice.

Mr. Jumba's collection is five volumes. That's so much varierty that is is hard to use all the material in one entire liturgical year. I can give you a reference list of the cantors and parishes in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia that use Mr. Jumba's collection on a weekly basis.

Ungcsertezs

Jim,

Too bad you and your parish in Arizona aren't interested in Jerry's work. It is very extensive and a plethora of plainchant repertoire IN ENGLISH. Contrary to popular believe, THERE ARE converts in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Metropolia in Western PA, Ohio and New Jersey that are actually receptive to Rusyn Prostopinije. Not only the English settings but Church Slavonic(imagine that!) as well!

Ungcsertezs

Well,

It seems that though I started this thread, my voice has been diminished through deletion! My point earlier was to remind those posting not to derail the thread, but I must have overstepped my humble boundaries in that I corrected a moderator.

I apologise for that apparent error in my judgement.

That off my chest, my original point in starting this thread had been regarding the use of LATIN LANGUAGE hymns within the context of the Byzantine Liturgy. It seems that the powers that be want Slavonic ERASED from our eparchies, but Latin is 'ok'??? My bringing up this subject was to point out the )not so)subtle message that one gets when Latin language hymns are allowed into an Eastern church's Divine Liturgy when we have such a reportiore of NON Latin source material to draw from.

Steve Petach