www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople is against UGCPatiarchate

Sorry Teen...

I realized it AFTER I posted...

Forgive me?

Yours in Christ,
Alice

I'm sooo SICK and TIRED of the Orthodox Churches TWISTING the arms of the Catholic Churches. It's like them pinching or twisting or hitting us, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

I'm TIRED of their threats!!! That's the MOST uncharitable and unchristian for them to say that they'll break ecumenical ties with the Catholic Church if the Vatican elevated UGCC (a Church that has NOTHING to do with the Orthodox Church). Who are they to tell us what to do in how we should handle our own CATHOLIC Church???

I'm really SICK of the uncharitable Orthodox making threats and twisting our arms.

It really makes me very upset.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine CATHOLIC

Alice,

No need for my forgiveness, you have done nothing. We both responded for the sake of protecting the reputation of +Bartholomew. And people call me triumphalist!

Logos Teen

Dear Friends,

Has anyone seen any good movies lately?

Alex

Brian,

Your emotions are coming off a little vague. I'm not sure I quite catch your opinion.

Thanks, Defreitas. I was unaware that Rome had so many empty churches. And yes, St. Theodore on Palatine Hill is only on loan to the Greek Orthodox, it seems (a very nice gesture worth emulating on the other side of the fence, if we're gonna be fair and square), but I believe that the now-Bulgarian (or Romanian, which was it??) church was given as a gift to the Bulgarian (or Romanian??) Orthodox Church.

Once is nice, twice in one city and within a span of only a few months is pushin' it...after a while, some people wonder whether the Church is going to loan her way out of beautiful shrines of God. Heavens knows the classical beautiful Roman Catholic churches aren't exactly rollin' in nowadays.

Logos Teen

OK, guys, along the same lines, here's a tidbit from the Chiesa.english site, the latest article from Vatican-watcher Sando Magister writing about the Vatican's Winter Diplomatic Offensive (Moscow and Washington):

"1. Kasper in Moscow. Here�s His Platform
...

But this time the meeting is on. Kasper is going to Moscow with the olive branch. The nunzio, Mennini, has carried out an intense work of preparation. And the Vatican has put on hold, for now, the nomination as patriarch of the highest-ranking archbishop of the Greek-rite Ukrainian Catholics, Lubomyr Husar. For the Orthodox, this nomination would be the highest possible offense...."

As if we couldn't have guessed.

Well, maybe the Vatican need more diplomacy!

If Patriarch Alexis says he doesn't want them to erect a Patriarchate in Kyiv (which would be legitimate) why doesn't Cardinal Kasper try to convince him to grant full autocephaly (although it's not right but Patriarch Alexis doesn't care too much about that) to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine and a Ukraninian Patriarch?

Dear Alex:

I hear that "Miracle" movie coming out today is pretty good. I'm sure Alexey will enjoy re-living the defeat of the Red Army team in 1980.

Yours,

hal

Dear Friends,

O.K., here are the top ten reasons why the Vatican won't recognize a Patriarchate for the UGCC:

1) This action will prevent the Moscow Patriarchate from submitting itself to absolute Roman authority and papal jurisdictional control.

2) The EP would put its plans to become a Roman Vicariate on indefinite hold.

3) Faced with the prospect of having to have loyalty to someone other than the Pope directly, this could cause tremendous emotional upset to the Ukrainian Basilians and other religious Orders who see the Pope of Rome as their Patriarch already.

4) It would harm Ukrainian Orthodox church unity.

5) It would cause untold costs to the Ukrainian Catholics who would have to spend thousands on including "His Beatitude our Patriarch" in all the Divine Liturgy booklets and sluzhebnyks that would have to be reprinted.

6) It would upset the Ukrainian community by removing from them the joy of struggling for an important cause.

7) The Ukrainians never had a patriarch before, so why should one be created for them now?

8) The primatial tradition of St Andrew and St Volodymyr the Great has been taken over by Moscow - the Ukrainians should have historically concentrated on military tactics so that they wouldn't have had to suffer defeat at Russian hands and have their Church taken over!

9) How much $$$ is a small Ukie Patriarchate worth in the overall $$$ scheme of things?

10) Who gives a flying . . . mandyas about the Ukies anyway?

Alex

Hi Alex,
I see you still have your sense of humour!

Personally, I think your #6 is right on the money.

Your friend,
Michael

Dear Teen and Alice,

My mistake. The Archbishop of Athens and the Ecumenical Patriarch - they are all Greeks to me ! So you can see how I can get confused !

All kidding aside, I have heard nothing but good things about the both GOC hierarchs. As I mentioned once before, a small group of our youth group (100 people) travelled from Rome to Constantinople to meet with the Ecumenical Patriarch in 1988 as part of our year long celebrations of a Millennium of Christianity in Ukraine. By all accounts the EC was spiritual, friendly, sophisticated, intelligent, and very much aware of our church and our predicament vis a vis the ROC which lacks legitimacy in Ukraine. He prayed with the group for the end to communist colonial rule in Ukraine . I believe He had very good intentions for the true Christians of Ukraine and I believe that these remain. I should post the picture of the SUM members presenting him with Ukrainian byzantine styled hand carved Carpathian wooden plate (rizhblena tarilvka). He was so happy that these young people came that he immediately had a helper hang the plate on the wall. I bet it is still there.

As for the Archbioshop of Athens, he has done a lot for the new wave of UGCC immigrants to Greece, and he has welcomed an ecumenical service with our youth group and the 1000's of people who plan on atteding. We hope to have it televised for future broadcast into Ukraine.

We hope to meet with both of them again this summer to further our cause of church and nation building. They go out of their way to make us feel at home.

I do however think that the EC could have used more guarded language which seems from our point of view to further support Russian colonial rule in Ukraine. The Greeks remember all too well what that means.

Dear Hritzko,

When you meet him, please do give him my respects . . . what is left of them . . .

But if the EP has said this, and he has, why is it so seemingly important to you to want to affirm what is clearly not the case?

And if the world itself was against us, do we need it to affirm who we are?

Let us also remember that many Greek Patriarchs in the past have favoured the Russian political line against the Ukrainians - remember Theophane of Jerusalem in the 17th century who, after he received a bunch of money in Moscow, when to the Kozaks and scolded them for fighting the Orthodox Russians?

As with monks, some habits dye hard . . .

I'd stay away from the EP and leave him alone.

Let the Russians go and sing for him . . . I know the tone they would use . . .

Alex

Dear Michael,

And to think I raised a stink with the Ontario government when his All-Holiness was here to ensure he received the same deference as the Pope of Rome . . .

Your friend,

Alex

In my modest opinion. I think it's time for all Ukie bishops from the UGCC, Kyivan Patriarchate and the UAOC to sit together and seriously think of forming one church. If and when such a meeting is announced imagine what effect it would have in Rome, Moscow and Constantinople.
Could this happen? I really don't see why not.
What would be the result? I'm not sure but it would really be interesting to see, and if Rome officially comes out and says that it will not recognize a Ukrainian Patriarchate due to bla, bla, bla as Patriarch Bartholomew recomends than I believe that many Ukrainians will leave communion with Rome. Except for the Basilians of course. So be it.
Lauro

Dear Lauro,

That would be a wonderful project - but it will never happen.

Did Ukrainians do anything about the way Rome treated the old Patriarch Josef the Confessor?

I was there and I saw . . .

Rome won't be confrontational with Ukies - it knows that Ukies get mad in such situations and use foul language . . .

Rome will simply remain silent on the whole matter indefinitely while the Ukies keep raising their hopes up, seeing in Roman silence a kind of consent.

Or else we'll just say that we already have a Patriarchate and who cares what Old Rome, New Rome and the "Third Rome" have to say about it?

As Shakespeare wrote, "Rome and roome enough (for other interpretations)!"

But I do think that Hritzko shouldn't be in a hurry to go and kiss the EP's hand . . .

Alex