www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship The Kliros More threads removed?

I notice that lately there has been a trend toward removing threads after locking them on various forums. Most recently the thread on music used at Mt Macrina.

While the opinions in those threads may be upsetting to some, there are often many good points raised in them, particularly in the responses. It seems to be rather drastic to outright remove 'offending' threads which raise some valid points and the insightful responses. Without dissent in a true discussion we become like the PC crowd, always trying too hard NOT to offend ANY one.

The issue of translation and music is one that we must face, even if it is a "done deal". We cantors still have to face those questions and attitudes from parishioners.

Steve Petach
Cantor

*nod*

Jeff Mierzejewski

It turns out I could have deleted certain posts without deleting the entire thread. My apologies to everyone concerned. If I had known then what I know now.....

I make a motion that our esteemed Administrator restore the Mt. Macrina music thread. Removing the thread isn't going to make this debate go away!

Ungcsertezs (Lets all cover our eyes, ears, mouths and act like it never happeened, give me a break!) :rolleyes:

Well said!

I�m not surprised that anything that goes against the modern and inclusive liturgical reform is deleted. Disagreement with the New Way will not be tolerated!

*shrug* The moderator has already apologized for deleting a thread when he wished to delete a post. According to the Administrator (see top post in the forum):

Ung-certez, God bless him, has steadfastly declined to say what parish he serves as cantor; given that he mentioned just going from parish to parish, it certainly has raised doubts that he is a serving cantor.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Thank you for your comments, Jeff.

I have stated that I'm not a paid cantor but sing at what ever parish I attend. What and how I sing, was taught to me by my 89 yr. old father and other "cradle" Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics from my home parish. I sing for the shear joy of knowing that "my" church continues to use an authentic liturgical musical tradition that has been passed down by our venerable Ruthenian (Rusyn) ancestors. I am often complimented on how I sing by our elder parishioners no matter what parish I attend. So for the the record, I support my home parish (80%of my tithe via the mail) and 20% out of pocket to at least two parishes in the greater Pittsburgh area. I know what good Prostopinije is supposed to sound like. I grew up in a parish where it has been sung correctly and where the official cantor doesn't read musical notation, but instead sings from memory and the venerable oral tradition.

Ungcsertezs

...which can work in Slavonic, but will not work in English until we have 50 years or so to establish a singing tradition that everyone knows by heart. Jerry Jumba used to tell me over and over about the problem of "musical anarchy in our chant" -- well, that is what you WILL have in English have unless printed music is used and followed, OR the melodies are so simplified that it is impossible NOT to sing them right.

And of course, the secondary result is the "liturigical train wrecks" when you have two cantors, or a cantor and priest or deacon, butting heads because one started the cadence too early and they end up singing at the same time but completely differently.

Being musically illiterate is MUCH more of a handicap with services in English than in Slavonic - and I have actually heard proposals that we only celebrate in Slavonic so that cantors don't need to learn new music.

Ung-certez, my question was NOT whether you sing, or whether you are a "paid cantor." The question is whether you have the responsibility of serving a parish or monastery at the kliros as cantor or assistance cantor. If you do, great, tell us where! If you just help with the singing for now, please refrain from posting, as the Administrator requested when the forum was set up.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

P.S. And my offer in that lost thread stands - come to Uniontown, we'll sing a bunch of music together (Vespers, Matins and Divine Liturgy) and you can give me your suggestions as to how it OUGHT to be sung correctly in English. May God bless your day!

There is no need for a "wall" between cantors that sing regularly in a single parish and those who sing in different parishes each Sunday, as they are needed. As far as I am concerned anyone who cantors at least one liturgy a year may participate in this Forum. We need to think about including people, not excluding them.

I do remind posters that critical posts need to be both constructive and charitable.

Admin

I have to differ slightly from our Administrator on one important point not mentioned- accountability. That is where the casual singer, who sings if he/she wants to or not, differs from a cantor. Casual singers are not necessarily cantors; cantors have an ongoing obligation to serve the parish in obedience as determined by their priest. Casual singers do not.

So far from Ung-Certez's comments, I can only conclude that he is not a cantor, but a casual singer, albeit one who has been around a while. He can also come and go as he pleases without having to submit to the ongoing accountability that the cantor submits to. Correct me if I'm wrong about you, Ung.

I am blessed to know an outstandingly good and highly motivated chanter who comes when he is able to do so and renders invaluable assistance without being paid a penny - not that he doesn't deserve to be paid, but the community which he serves in this sacrificial way is genuinely impecunious.

So far, I have seen no sign of anyone saying that this man has nothing worth-while to say (or sing) and ought not to express himself on such matters. If I did see a sign of that, I would take the gravest exception.

Incognitus the Inquisitive Inquisitor

I think many of us know folks who assist from time to time, are good at it, enjoy it, and are appreciated for it. That does not necessarily mean that they involve themselves in service planning to the extent of conferring with their priest about which way to go according to the typikon, selecting readings for vespers, etc. They are also not necessarily on call for funeral services, etc., but are appreciated when they are there. They make a contribution, just not necessarily to the degree that a designated cantor does. Their priest knows who to go to for assistance.

Because I work weekends, it is impossible for me to take on the responsibilities of a regular cantor.

Ungcsertezs ( Still a doubting Thomas who will need way more convincing the new translation/ new music is absolutely necessary!) :p

Discussion of liturgical reform has moved to the Faith & Worship forum.

The closing of threads or transfers to other forums are both duties of the moderators as mentioned by the Administrator when setting up Kliros. If any posters have a reason for this thread to remain open, please let me know. Otherwise, I will close it tomorrow. This time I won't delete it, however.