www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy "REVISIONism" vs. "RECENSIONism"--a call for renewal

I think there is enough stuff traveling around up there, without all of these as well.

What do churches that don't have pews, call their "pew books"?

the unworthy,
Elias

I quess I should have posted "people's book." :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, here is a real issue of sorts. It's not so much a problem at the Divine Liturgy, but it can certainly be a problem at other services, especially the Vigil.

There are people - including myself - who wish to be able to follow the service in the service-books (notice the plural). This requires having the service-books available for the purpose, obviously. One can scarcely insist that every parish maintain a complete set of service-books for each parishioner, plus a few more sets for possible visitors! But some of us take this seriously enough to provide ourselves with the necessary books (at considerable expense, incidentally).

Where are we supposed to put these books during the service which we are attempting to follow? If there is a pew - as there should not be - that's not an adequate answer; one cannot satisfactorily rest the service-books on the floor, nor on the back of the pew ahead of one's own, because the usual result will be that the books fall to the floor.

Back in Western Ukraine and present-day Eastern Slovakia, it was the custom to print large, weighty copies of the "Sbornik", a compendium of needed texts for the divine services. These books also were heavy, especially since if it was to be used in a dimly-lit church, the Sbornik had to have print of reasonable size. But they somehow served the purpose; people knew - and some older people still know today - prodigious quantities of liturgical texts in Church-Slavonic.

I don't really claim to have a fully satisfactory answer to this question, even though I could continue the discussion at some length. But here's a suggestion: About 30 years ago in the aftermath of Vatican II, the Oriental Congregation published a beautiful 4-volume Anthologion - in Greek - of the more necessary liturgical texts. Fortunately for me, Archbishop Joseph (Raya) gave me a set. It would be well to publish this again, in Church-Slavonic (since Church-Slavonic is relatively stable) and even in other languages (such as English) if texts can obtain a reasonable degree of acceptance.

The Greek edition is long since sold out, and owing to the financial woes of the Holy See, there is not the necessary financial backing for a reprint. Please God there will be.

Fr. Serge

Father Deacon John,

Thanks for your post!

Please go back and read my posts that include quotes from Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI). You will see that I quoted him speaking from two perspectives.

The first perspective in which I quoted him was with him speaking as a general liturgical theologian and historian. Here I noted that he stated that the custom of praying the Anaphora quietly is: 1) �no accident� (meaning it was purposeful), 2) �from a very early time� (meaning, among other things that it occurred while the liturgical language used was still understandable by the people) and 3) seems to have originated in the Christian East (�Jersualem�). These are historical comments that are not related to him being a Latin theologian.

The second perspective in which I quoted him was with him speaking as a theologian of the Latin Church about the Latin Church. In this perspective he stated with regard to the Eucharistic Prayer: 1) �that in no sense does the whole Canon always have to be said out loud� and that 2) the possibility that silence, too, silence especially, might constitute communion before God.�

How did I sum up Cardinal Ratzinger�s comments?

I summed them up by stating that:

1. Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) dislikes the current custom in the Latin Church in which the Anaphora is prayed out loud.

2. Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) has called for a change in the custom to return to what he considers a �filled silence�.

3. Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) notes that the custom of the Anaphora being prayed quietly comes from the earliest times, from Jerusalem, was no accident, and happened while the liturgical language was understandable.

4. Since there are notable theologians in the Latin Church who are unhappy with the custom in the Latin Church and are calling for a change, and since we do not see any evidence that this practice has produced the desired outcome, we ought to wait to see what happens in the coming generations before mandating their custom in our Church.

5. We need a better understanding of history, of exactly when, where, and why the custom of praying the Anaphora quietly developed, and how it is related to the rise of the icon screen.

6. We need to consider that there are those in Byzantine Orthodoxy who have spoken of praying the Anaphora aloud for the past thousand years and that Byzantine Orthodoxy has not embraced the idea.

7. We need to consider unity, both with our fellow members of the Ruthenian Recension (the other Catholic and Orthodox Churches that make up the recension), with the rest of the Byzantine Church (both Catholic and Orthodox).

8. Since our liturgical books allow liberty in this matter we really need to do nothing and allow the Spirit to lead.

I accept and respect that you personally feel that the custom of praying the Anaphora out loud gives life to the Liturgy.

I accept and respect that Father David (and a few others) personally feel that the custom of praying the Anaphora out loud gives life to the Liturgy. [Father David (a good man who serves Christ and the Church with great faith and love) has even gone so far as to say that �the Liturgy does not enliven the Church� (for various reasons) � a premise which he has not yet provided any proof for and one which I reject utterly and totally.]

Guess what?

I know not a small number of clergy and people who feel that kneeling and not standing at the Divine Liturgy gives much life to the Liturgy.

I even know a few who believe that the use of hand bells and some of the other Latin customs adopted by our spiritual fathers and mothers gives much life to the Liturgy.

I know many who believe that a whole host of customs that are not our own give life to the Liturgy and should be adopted by our Church.

Are you really suggesting that we revise the Ruthenian Liturgy because you and a few others feel that some new custom gives life to the Liturgy?

If yes, I reject that idea completely. I have never advocated anything in Liturgy for our Church except that we finally and fully embrace the fullness of our official Ruthenian recension.

We ought not to revise the Liturgy based upon the personal tastes of a small number within our Church.

We ought not revise the Liturgy at all except in consultation and cooperation with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension and the entire Byzantine Church.

I repeat my previous call for 1) scholarship (we need a full and accurate accounting of the historical development of all the customs in both the Byzantine Liturgy and Ruthenian recension celebration of the Byzantine Liturgy), 2) liberty (where our liturgical books allow it, liberty best serves in this case) and 3) unity (working together with all the Byzantine Churches, especially those Catholic and Orthodox Churches which are part of our Ruthenian recension).

I again (and again, in peace) invite those who support the forced revision of our Liturgy to answer any of the many questions I have put forth.

I also have a suggestion to make to anyone and everyone. As a Church that has wandered far from our liturgical treasure we cannot pretend to currently have a mature understanding of our tradition. To obtain that understanding we need to pray our tradition (Vespers, Matins and the Divine Liturgy) in its official form for at least a generation or two in the majority of our parishes because it is by praying the Liturgy that we are formed by it. For those who wish a crash course in Byzantine Liturgy I highly recommend keeping the Vigil at your local ROCOR parish. Keep Sundays and feast days (of course!) at your local Byzantine parish. But also keep the old calendar feasts (and maybe even the Saturday evening Vigil) at your local ROCOR parish. Do this for at least five years. Right now, as a Church, we do not even have the beginning of an understanding of the treasure that is the Byzantine Liturgy. Praying the feasts with your local ROCOR parish can be a quick, five year primer in the general Byzantine Liturgical Tradition.


Admin / John

John, many are! I can't publicly post names because I don't want to get anyone in trouble with their bishop, but hardly a week goes by where ther is not a local Byzantine Catholic priest in "civvies" attending services. I currently have every last book on liturgics, saved from my days as a seminarian in Jordanville, lent out to them. Just this past Thursday, 2 were at my place where we did an Akafist to the Kursk Mother of God. The interest is definately there! It really is a shame that Eastern Catholics have to go to the Orthodox "incognito" to learn about their own Traditions. And the real loss to the Eastern Catholics is that those that do learn about their Traditions, frequently become fully Orthodox. The best Apologists that the ROCOR has are those hierarchs, Catholic AND Orthodox, who have abandoned their own Traditions.

Alexandr

You know Alex, your post is too true! I too am a Greek Catholic who spends Lent and holy days at an Orthodox Church....we've sort of adopted each other! I've spoken to the priest there, and sadly he feels my pain. I want to be Catholic, but I also have a longing to be Orthodox. I'm afraid the new Liturgy may push me over the edge.

The real drama this year, where will I spend Easter? At the church I can take communion at, or at the church who more fully celebrates the Resurrection of Christ and whose people are more prepared for this exceptional day.....

Cathy

These are my feelings also Cathy. It is very painful for me.

Alexandr

Are you saying if those priests were to show up in clerical garb they would be warmly greeted? If they show up "incognito" it may be just to avail themselves of the prayer.

In any event, if we can learn from Orthodox how to celebrate the services, what is the shame?

The shame would be to withhold liturgical services from the people.

But we are not learning from the Orthodox how to celebrate the services.

We are changing all the services so that they do not look like the Orthodox.

That is the shame!

Deacon John wrote: Well, I would buy your explanation that the Byzantine priests are showing up for the prayer in Orthodox Churches if you didn't skip over the sentence that stated......

Alexandr wrote: Why, oh why would they need these books if they're just showing up for the prayer????????? I tend to believe Alexandr, because when I want to experience liturgy correctly, and I grow tired of the Green Book, I take my Greek-Catholic body and stand it in an Orthodox church. I suspect in some cases for the priests, it's just not worth "chewing through the restraints." And I agree further with Alexandr, once you have priests delving into orthodox spirituality it's probably likely they'll want to stay.

The OCA mission in Tampa is an example of how people grew tired of the Byzantine Church playing around with the Divine Liturgy.

JMHO,
Cathy

JD wrote: Yes!!!! If we were moving our Liturgy closer, by first adding the word orthodox to the text of our Divine Liturgy we might be learning something....or correcting "forever and ever" to read, "unto ages of ages." But we haven't, have we? Instead of making it more traditional, we're making it more contemporary....just like our Latin friends did so many years ago....I don't know about anyone else, but I'm tired of the party line.

Cathy

Dear Cathy,
Do not despair! The USA is a big place, and I don't know where you live (nor is there any reason why I should know where you live), but I can assure you that there are Greek-Catholic Churches Out There which will welcome you for an edifying and remarkably complete and well-prepared Holy Week and Pascha. If that requires travel and taking time off from work - well, can you think of anything better to do?

Are Vespers and Orthros an inalienable part of our tradition? Yes, most emphatically. Is it a shame that they are unavailable in so many of our parishes? Yes, certainly.

However, it doesn't end there. I could (but won't) name an Orthodox priest who faithfully served the Vigil every Saturday evening for seven straight years, with his children singing - and no one, but no one, showed up. Too many people regard Saturday night as "America's night to howl". The good Father was still alive and well when last I looked; I can assure you that if nine people would commit themselves to coming faithfully to the Vigil, serving, reading, chanting and above all keeping it going, he would be on his knees thanking the Good Lord.

I'm not just being hypothetical - I also know a priest (this on is Greek-Catholic) who announced that Saturday Vespers would be cancelled for the summer months. The faithful came to him and asked him how many people would justify holding the service. He named a number, and they promptly organized a rota - Saturday Vespers continued without interruption. It really can be done.

On the other hand, there are many priests who are responsible for two or more parishes, and who are run off their feet just trying to accomplish a bare minimum. So try asking them simply to permit an organized group of the faithful to come to Church regularly at a set hour for Reader's Services.

More could be said, but I trust the point is made.

Fr. Serge

Dear Fr John,
Of course they would be warmly greeted if they show up in Riassa and Pectoral Cross. The reason they don't is because they are afraid of wagging tongues! You know what I speak of. Every Enzhi Baba out there has a direct line to the bishop's ear!
I am personally friends with a few of them. We talk on the phone, support each other, relax together (Even barbecue lamb sometimes! )They voice the same gripes I hear on the Forum. They are and want to remain Catholic, but at the same time they want to preserve their Traditions. They feel like they are being asked to choose. My heart goes out to them. It has already been made known to them that they will always have a home in Orthodoxy, if that is what they choose.

Alexandr