www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy "REVISIONism" vs. "RECENSIONism"--a call for renewal

So far as the pews are concerned - and I fully agree with Bishop Kallistos that we should "take them out and burn them" (unless, of course, the wood is of sufficient quality to warrant recycling it) - one problem I've observed, which puzzles me greatly, is that many people seem to feel downright threatened by an open space. They will cling to a wall as if they were afraid that without the wall they might fall over.

It's not as bad with movable seating - but they don't really like that either. There is something solid about pews that they find reassuring.

I don't understand the cause of this, so I have no particular suggestion as to what to do about it.

Fr. Serge

Fr. Deacon,

thank you for your post.

Let me clear. I don't think you think this, but just for the record, I am not advocating a Taliban style method of having someone walk around with a bamboo stick and wack those you kneel.

There is a fine line between looking down on people and telling it like it is. Canon XX is pretty explicit, I didn't write, noone alive today wrote it. Several, several hundred years ago these topics were debated and issues decided. It always amazes me, and this is not to look down on others, how people can take a cafeteria style belief to their faith and practice. I like this but not this and I'll practice how I like. Well that's not how it is. That's not looking down on people, it's just how it is.

I respectfully disagree with you by the way. It is about correct practices versus incorrect practices. Canon XX says no kneeling on Sundays. It's pretty clear. I don't know how to be any clearer.

Monomakh

Almost every Orthodox church I have visited in this country has either pews or chairs aligned in the nave like pews. I have only seen kneelers, and kneeling in two churches.

Andrew

And this is because, why???? Because the priests and deacons are not doing their jobs -- they're too afraid people will leave a church that is teetering because it doesn't have the courage to be what it needs to be -- like Pope John Paul the II requested of Archbishop Judson -- prove that your church can be Orthodox in communion with Rome!

The first sentence isn't true...because Latins kneel to go to confession, and I believe that is a sign of penance. Wouldn't you agree that's their intent? It's a case of our priests not educating their parishioners. Deacon Lance, in all seriousness, why don't you take this on as a pet project in your parish just to see if educating the parishioners could bring about a change? I know of one priest in the Parma Eparchy who has a 60+ parish who taught his parishioners all about the "little" Easter, and they no longer kneel. It can be done.

This is an over-generalization, because in my area I know of very few Orthodox churches that have kneelers. Since the Eparchy is bent on "correcting" our Liturgy, why not also work on correcting the bad habits we've picked up from the Latins and Protestants-- like kneelers and pews?

Like Father Serge said, many could be recycled so this could be thought of as an "income" stream for the parishes, if nothing else.

JMHO,
Cathy

Deacon Lance is actually correct. I belong to a ROCOR parish, ya know, hard line Orthodox and all that. My parish is a very multicultural mix The building was originally an American Metropolia Church, so there are pews. On Sunday, it is very easy to tell what background each parishoner is, as the Great Russians stand, the Carpatho-Russian kneel, and the poor Americans look around trying to guess what they should do! (I had to throw that in! )
Yes kneeling technically is incorrect. And over the years, I have noticed it less and less. But for many of Carpatho Russian background, it is just the way they have always done it. I'm sure Father could just say "That's it, no more kneeling", but what would that do other than hurt some feelings. With time and education, people eventually see and learn. Same deal with the pews. On the North wall of the Church, there is a huge, really "slatki" mural of Christ blessing the children, with Raphaelesque fat baby Cherubs and all. Technically, is it an icon - no. But many years ago, one of the families payed dearly to have it painted on the wall. So there it stays, until the plaster cracks and needs replaced. Then something more "correct" will be done. This way, everyone is happy. Grace is not measured by correctness of icons, how many poklons one makes etc. With time and learning, with the emphasis on the spiritual as opposed to the corporal, by the Grace of God, we will get there.

By the way, if you really want to confuse a Russian bishop, do a hierarchal service with a tetrapod! They really don't know how to deal with them! :p

Alexandr

Fr Dcn Lance,

My attitude towards kneeling was changed simply by reading, so what could some catechism accomplish?

As to "all the catechisms in the world" not being able to change deeply held convictions that kneeling is proper, what other convictions should we be aware of that cannot be changed by catechism? I've encountered people (Catholics) who believe every word uttered by a Pope to be infallible - hopeless case. And the belief that saying prayer 'Y' a 'X' number of times will result in 'Z'? Nah, don't waste your time on them.

How many more convictions cannot be changed? Let's compile a list and pass it along to those who prepare catechisms so that they don't waste their time on hopeless causes.

Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ του Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν.

"Almost every Orthodox church I have visited in this country has either pews or chairs aligned in the nave like pews. I have only seen kneelers, and kneeling in two churches."

Glory to Jesus Christ!

It is really time for all of us to stop posting as if our own limited experience is the same as "what is true in all times and places."

Kneelers are, in fact, quite commonly found in Orthodox chures with pews. I would not assume that this means that these Orthodox kneel on Sundays or during Pascha. However, I can tell you with assurance that the Orthodox Church (Antiochian) in Bridgeville, PA (which has never been a Uniate parish) HAS kneelers and people DO KNEEL every Sunday (except during Pascha). In the twenty or so ACROD parishes I visited or served in during the 1980s, ALL of them had kneelers. I can't tell you whether people knelt on Sundays, because I wasn't ever in those churches for divine service on the Lord's Day.

It is incredibly important to realize that NONE of us can accurately present the ENTIRE picture of either the Byzantine Catholic Church or of any of the Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions. There is way too much variation from parish to parish to do that.

That's why the internet is replete with "in my experience" or "as I have observed."

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Wanna know the secret? Simple - move it!

Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ, Υιέ του Θεού, ελέησόν με τον αμαρτωλόν.

"In the twenty or so ACROD parishes I visited or served in during the 1980s, ALL of them had kneelers. I can't tell you whether people knelt on Sundays, because I wasn't ever in those churches for divine service on the Lord's Day."


The ACROD parish in Windber, Pa has kneelers and they knelt down during the consecration and before communion.

Since my statment was quoted, I'll add a little more. You may recall what started this was this statement

"Most Byzantine Churches in America, Orthodox and Catholic, have pews and kneel on Sundays."

I simply added a rejoinder that this has not been my experience. I didn't say it's not true (though I don't know if it is). I didn't say my experience represented the overall picture of Orthodoxy in America. I just said it was my experience.

I've been in multiple OCA, AOA and GOA parishes on both coasts and the midwest. Out of all of those one had kneelers (Antiochian, and they used them on Sundays). That is my experience, take from it what you will. I have in some places seen individuals kneel without the use of kneelers. A Romanian family in one place I knew knelt on the floor during the Great Entrance and the Epiklesis.

At our current parish (ACROD), they have kneelers and people use them, including myself because I don't wish to stand out. I would not be surprised to find this the norm in our diocese.

Andrew

Dear all,

As the moderator of the section, I am stepping in. First, you may have noticed the title of this thread has been changed. I have had some concerns given to me by of some posters. They feel to single out one priest and to blame him not matter how instrumental his efforts may be for the proposed liturgical revisions is inappropriate and unfair, and I must say that I happen to agree with the points as they have been presented. As we are all aware, this is not a one man effort, but the work of the IECL.

Second, I am at fault for this one, this thread has twisted and strayed in many directions. In reality, the last twenty plus posts have very little to with the original topic of this thread. Instead, I count the possibility of at least six other topic threads here. If you want to discuss kneelers, pews and whether or not it is appropriate or if the practice should be mandated to be abolished, start another thread. If the praying of presbyterial prayers aloud is a concern, start another thread. The same can be said about pew or people�s books. I can go on, but it would require me to reread all 110+ posts to separate topics.

I am going to close this thread, and encourage our posters to create new threads regarding topics of concern regarding the proposed Revised Divine Liturgy. I am going to warn posters though as in other forum sections, topics will closely monitored to prevent straying. If the thread is found to be straying a warning will be given, and if it not heeded and another thread started, the thread will be closed off. This thread makes it extremely difficult for anyone to get any clear idea from the number of topics placed in one thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator