www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy "REVISIONism" vs. "RECENSIONism"--a call for renewal

My comment about withholding services is rhetorical. Services such as matins and vespers may not be celebrated, but I highly doubt they are withheld in our parishes.

Of those who feel strongly about restoring such services to the parish, I would suggest you encourage your pastor to offer these services and then you show up to these services.

There is nothing more discouraging for a pastor then to have a parishioner complain about the lack of particular services and then that same person does not bother to participate in these services.

Only yesterday I contributed a posting in which I advocated precisely the same practical measure, although without shouting about it.

Nonetheless, it's difficult, if not impossible, to deny that there are and have been parishes where the clergy have deliberately withheld services in circumstances which would have been conducive to the retention of the services.

Fr. Serge

Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
My comment about withholding services is rhetorical.

And here I thought it was logical.


Services such as matins and vespers may not be celebrated, but I highly doubt they are withheld in our parishes.

Of those who feel strongly about restoring such services to the parish, I would suggest you encourage your pastor to offer these services and then you show up to these services.

Maybe you can explain why 90%-95% of our parishes in Parma and Pittsburgh don't offer them then. Are you saying that it is the peoples job to ask for them, or was that another rhetorical statement? You know as well as I do that many of our parishes are filled with people who have never heard of either of these services, so how could these people ask for something they don't know exists? In many parishes it is the duty of our clergy to educate and offer these services. 100% of our parishes should offer these services and it shouldn't always be the people (although there's nothing wrong with it) asking for these services that makes them occur. And that is not a rhetorical statement.



Of those who feel strongly about restoring such services to the parish, I would suggest you encourage your pastor to offer these services and then you show up to these services.
There is nothing more discouraging for a pastor then to have a parishioner complain about the lack of particular services and then that same person does not bother to participate in these services.

You need to get a new webcam to watch me on because your insinuation that I and others who want to see Vespers and Matins at all of our parishes would suggest to our pastors to have these services and then not show up is simply false. Yeah, yeah, I know, it was rhetorical. When you shout in all caps to '...show up..' you are insinuating that I would have my pastor have these services and not show up.

Unlike your post, here are some facts:

For years I have attended a couple of Orthodox churches for Vespers and Matins because they were the only places that offered these services. There are one or two churches in the Parma Eparchy that do offer these now and I attend them and no longer have to go to these Orthodox churches.

Just this past Thursday, I attended New Years Vespers at the local Melkite parish with my four year old son. I had to go to a Melkite parish because no Ruthenian parish had Vespers that night. So I 'showed up' at another Greek Catholic church that offered the service.

It is disappointing to see a member of our Diaconate assume the worst in people. Also the shouting used in the original message was another disappointment, especially since I regularly attend and '..show up..' to services like Vespers and Matins and the fact that the Moderator of this thread had specifically addressed the shouting issue in a previous post on this thread. It is a shame to see a member of this board, a moderator of various subjects on this board, a member of our Diaconate, and a fellow Greek Catholic use the tone and content of your last post. The next time I 'show up' to Vespers and/or Matins I'll pray for you.

Monomakh

Dear Monomakh:

I apologize for my "shouting," and I thank Fr Anthony for the correction. My post was not directed at you personally.

I wanted to italicize the text for emphasis, not embolden and capitalize to shout, however my two year old son had just climbed into my arms and I must have hit the "caps lock" key for the text and hit the bold key instead of italics. After hitting the post key, I left the computer to return him to bed.

I cannot comment about the liturgical services (or the lack thereof) in any other location. From my limited knowledge, I understand the priests in these eparchies may cover two or more parishes. Expecting them to celebrate the full cycle of services at each parish is not realistic.

At my own parish, we cannot have one Divine Liturgy because of space limitations. Our priest celebrates 3 Sunday Divine Liturgies, 1 on Saturday evening with Vespers, 2 on Sunday morning each preceeded by the Office of the Third Hour. This may not be ideal, but given the realities of space limitations, this is what we do, and we needed to start somewhere. This is a parish where not too long ago, people came "to pray the rosary before Mass." Not surpisingly, more people arrive to pray the Third Hour than to pray the rosary. However, these situations will take time, patience, encouragement, catechesis, etc to change.

I applaud you for taking the initiative to educate yourself and praying the holy services. Perhaps, you, Monomakh, are in a position to inform/teach/encourage your fellow parishioners of these services and request/encourage your pastor to celebrate these services. If your pastor declines, politely request to lead them yourself.

Thank you for your offer to pray for me.

Father Deacon John,

What's more discouraging, having people who ask for services not show up or not having services such as Vespers or Matins for 75+ years in over 90% of our parishes?

Are you actually implying that the reason for the absence of Vespers and Matins at over 90% of our parishes for the last 75+ years is because people haven't asked for them. And those who have asked for them turn around and don't show up.

Monomakh makes a good point that the vast majority of our people have never even heard of these services and therefore could never ask for them.

Plain and simple it is our Deacons (including you) Priests and Bishops responsibility to provide education and explaination and guidance to our people as to what these services are, why they are important, the info regarding the current feast that is found in these services, etc. and then provide these services period.

Now, does that absolve us in the pews from doing anything? Of course not. But our deacons, priests and bishops are our leaders and leaders have to lead. And on this subject our leaders should be leading us to restoring these lost Traditions such as Vespers and Matins and restoring the beauty of our Eastern Faith. Complaining that people don't show up is just that, complaining. Once again, a complete education effort of all the faithful needs to take place so that a true effort is made to have an understanding of Vespers and Matins.

Finally, support and praise should be given to those like Monomakh who are encouraging these services rather than a disrespectful attitude. We should be happy that after all of the watered down Eastern Christianity that many have put up with that they are still with us and not with the Orthodox who would welcome them with open arms and a kinder attitude.

MC

Well, timing is everything.

I took time to post a thoughtful reply to Fr. Deacon John's earlier post(two posts ago) and after posting saw that he had posted an explanation for his earlier post just 6 or 7 minutes prior.

I think that the salient points of my post are still relevant and I applaud the Fr. Deacon for commending Monomakh for his encouragement of our Eastern services. His explanation answered some of my questions that I had of his post.

MC

MC:

To tell the truth, I do not have an answer to your question:

In speaking to some of the elderly cradle Byzantine Catholics, most remember the celebration of Vespers and Matins, other do not. Those who do recall the celebration of Vespers and Matins remember a change came about when the parish began to celebrate multiple Sunday Liturgies. This may account for Vespers and Matins falling into disuse.

This I have noticed- when the priest celebrates 1 Sunday Divine Liturgy, the other services are celebrated as well. When the priest celebrates multiple Sunday Divine Liturgies, either in one parish or 1 Divine Liturgy in multiple parishes, Vespers and Matins are not celebrated. In this last instance, the priest cannot be expected to celebrate Vespers and Matins. However, if laymen can take the initiative to learn about these services (these are being taught at the Metropolitan Cantor Institute), maybe, just maybe, these concerned laymen may be ready, willing, and able to serve Vespers and Matins as reader services.

Encouragement from who? Certainly not the priests and bishops. There have been so many times when different groups in the Eparchy of Parma have attempted to "rally the troops," only to find that priests do not print announcemnts in their bulletins advertising the event, or they withold pertinent information. One person had to keep restocking flyers on their parishes announcement table because a stack of 50 would be missing from the previous week. Since there was limited access to the church, and no weekday liturgies, well....you can come up with your own answers.

What constitutes being in a position to inform/teach/encourage others? Anytime a layman does this, they are "poo-pooed" by the priest. Most priests do not like it when their feet are held to the fire by parishioners -- they often label them as trouble makers. When I spoke to my parish priest about not kneeling on Sundays
based upon what I read in the "Light for Life" series, I was told my intrepretation of it was wrong, and that "x" amount of years in the seminary overruled anything I read.

With these kinds of attitudes, what are we to do?

"Most priests do not like it when their feet are held to the fire by parishioners -- they often label them as trouble makers. When I spoke to my parish priest about not kneeling on Sundays
based upon what I read in the "Light for Life" series, I was told my intrepretation of it was wrong, and that "x" amount of years in the seminary overruled anything I read.

With these kinds of attitudes, what are we to do? "


Go to the Orthodox church that is usually right around the corner

Next time you talk to him and he starts to get clever with you, remind him that some things learnt in the seminary are now costing the Catholic Church Millions of Dollars.

The rules are out there what should be happening in Church but they just choose not to do follow the proper rules.

Yes, because the Bishops choose to get "lathered up" over silly things like money, and the priests know the things the bishop should be policing, he isn't.

As one bishop recently told me, "....there's always hope." Whatever that means...what I wanted to say was, "maybe the Holy Spirit is working through lowly ol' me!!!"

JMHO, Cathy

"Go to the Orthodox church that is usually right around the corner"

Yes, please do, see that most have pews and kneelers and that they kneel on Sundays despite Nicea.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Father Deacon Lance,

I can't speak for the area that you are in, but in the area I frequent, most Orthodox Churches do not have kneelers but have pews. The ones that have kneelers don't kneel on Sundays. But, I'm willing to admit that the Orthodox churches that I see may not be representative sampling of the rest of the Orthodox churches.

May I kindly suggest that what your post should have read was that the Orthodox churches with pews and kneelers and the people kneeing on Sundays in spite of Nicea are:

Wrong to have pews like most of our churches do..

Wrong to have kneelers like most of our churches do.

Wrong to kneel on Sundays like most of our churches do.

All Eastern churches with these practices should have catachesis and change these practices as soon as possible in both the Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox churches.

I do not know for the life of me why there are people in our church (I'm not saying you are one) who gleefully justify our incorrect practices with incorrect practices of some Orthodox churches, yet ignore any proper practices by some Orthodox churches and scream 'pastoral sensitivity' when challenged to implement these proper practices in our Byzantine churches.

Monomakh

Trouble is, there are pious practices associated with kneeling that give some parishioners personal comfort. I recall an OCA parish where the priest advised his congregation not to kneel during the Great Entrance. An elderly woman told him, "I've been kneeling during the Great Entrance all my life, and I'm not about to stop now."

It IS possible to gradually do away with pews by removing a few at a time over an extended period, and putting chairs for the elderly and infirm along the walls as is done in some churches. It's just not typical of most churches in America, because for 100 years or more pews have prevailed, along with other atypical customs. Americans usually know no different way, and are apt to reject removing the pews unless very gradually persuaded. They tend to see no pews as an innovation instead of a restoration.

Monomahk,

It is just that it is very hard to convince a parishioner that getting rid of pews and kneeling on Sundays is an Easternization when they can walk around the corner to the Orthodox Church and see both.

Kneeling is a touchy issue as well. Yes, we should not kneel on Sundays because kneeling is penitential and every Sunday is a little Pascha. The trouble is, in our society, kneeling has no connection with penance, it is seen as a sign of reverence. All the catechisms in the world are not going to change the mind of someone who is convicted that kneeling is the most reverent posture before our Lord in the Eucharist.

And I don't think we are talking about incorrect verses correct practices, just practices that have changed do to historical circumstance. Most Byzantine Churches in America, Orthodox and Catholic, have pews and kneel on Sundays. If one can convince a parish to return to the ancient practice that is great, but I don't think we should look down on the others as incorrect.

Fr. Deacon Lance