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Refugee,

I am sorry that your experience has been less than fulfilling; speaking as someone who works in ministry, generally when someone is running from something rather than to something he will remain unfulfilled.

All Eastern Catholic churches will have their problems because it is also a human institution. I would suggest talking to a priest or a spiritual director if you are having problems.

Ed

Roman refugee, every jurisdiction, Greek Catholic and Orthodox, has tinkered with their English version of the Divine Liturgy to a greater or lesser extent.

The big question for all is the best way to render Greek, Slavonic, Arabic, and Romanian into English. And about that, there are as many answers as their are translators. You will find similar comments about translating the Bible--a nearly identical task.

As I have said elsewhere, don't come to an Eastern Catholic church expecting to find the last vestiges of 1950's American Latin piety. You'll be greatly disappointed.

Accept us as we are--and you will find us a blessing beyond your dreams of what was possible in this world.

A great comment Pasisozi

Both for the Bible and the Liturgy there has been too great a tendency to tinker and not enough to translate rigorously -- translations and modifications, such as the RDL, that are in places too much of the translator and not enough of the text.

While liturgical Slavonic follows Greek syntax (word order), you can't get English to do that at all times without coming up with gibberish. If you don't believe me, look at Professor Orloff's translations of a century ago, where "God is with us" in Great Compline becomes, "For with us is the God" (Oti meth' imon o Theos in Greek).

Any good translation of the Liturgy or Bible will have to balance formal equivalence (word for word) with dynamic equivalence (thought for thought, with occasional substitutions of a figure of speech to fit the receptor language).

Example: One of the Theotokia before Christmas literally reads, "A young heifer comes bearing a fatted calf," but it's an insult in English to call a woman a heifer. I've usually seen this rendered, "The virgin comes bearing Christ in her womb," with a footnote giving a more literal rendering.

Extreme examples plucked from the air ultimately miss the mark in lacking pertinence. The topic is the RDL. Put the 1965 English liturgicon text next to the Ruthenian Recension Slavonic (Rome, 1943), and that next to the 1950 (Rome, ed.) Greek also if desired, and then give examples, pro and con as found. Also see the study text here .

While there can be agreement on the goal, what actually constitutes the proper "balance" is the issue. I've liked "As literal as possible, as free as necessary." Those who believe, however, that the NRSV actually follows its stated dictum must have a different definition for the words "possible" and "necessary." link .

ajk, I admit I've had only passing experience (maybe twice?) with the RDL. I don't know what the previous praxis was in either English or Slavonic.

I won't argue with "as literal as possible, as free as necessary." I think we're saying the same thing in different words.

I'm not familiar with the NRSV. I was brought up as a Baptist on the KJV 1611-1769. Even the original RSV was not trusted.

My own preferences for contemporary translations are the NKJV and the OSB. Even though the NKJV is based on the Masoretic text, significant variations in the LXX are noted. The NT of the NKJV/OSB is the only one I know that is based on the Received Text.

Of course, all translations have their faults--and virtues.

As a curious outside observer, I'd like to hear an update regarding if the efforts on this forum and elsewhere to critique, correct, or replace the RDL are meeting with any response (positive or negative) with the BCC hierarchy or anyone with influence/ authority on liturgical matters.

There is no significant ongoing effort to critique, correct, or replace the RDL.
The Council of Hierarchs have been very vocal that the normative form of the Ruthenian Divine Liturgy as promulgated by Rome in 1942 is so awful that it cannot be allowed.
All those who disagreed were labeled “disloyal” and “unwilling to change”.
Many were told to leave and left.
The bishops are happy that they left.
It’s a real shame since they were the best workers in the parishes.
During Holy Week we get to bring out the old Levkulic books. It’s like “old home week”.
Msgr. Levkulic’s books were far from perfect.
But when compared to the Revised texts and music they are indeed perfect.

FWIT, for those who ascribe blame on reduction of parish numbers on your liturgical translation I will offer this. We have used the same pew books in two editions since the early 1980's in the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox diocese of Johnstown, the Orthodox 'alter ego' if you will of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. Like you, we have experienced large losses of membership over the years. A lack of immigration from the old world (unlike our Ukrainian or Arab brothers and sisters in the same period), economic decline in the old Rust Belt where we started and simple demographics and the passage of time are to blame more than anything. It's tough to acknowledge this but I was contrasting a group picture of St. Michael's Orthodox Church in Binghamton, NY from our centennial in 2004 to our recent 110th Anniversary last November. St. Michael's was once one of the larger Greek Catholic parishes of the Eparchy prior to 1939 when it joined the Orthodox church and Holy Spirit Byzantine Catholic church in Binghamton was founded by those unwilling to switch. Someone bemoaned the obvious loss of members over that ten year period of time and asked out loud, what are we doing wrong? My simple blunt answer - dying. At an average of 30 burials per year in the parish, the math quickly points out the cause. And with the under forty population nearly non existant - like in many parishes in Jersey, Ohio and western PA...it is a sobering reality. Sorry to be such a downer in Holy Week, but it is a mutual problem.

I'd have to second DMD- much as I can sympathize to an attempt to pin the blame for declining membership on the bishops' liturgical tomfoolery, it does seem to really depend on other, more important factors. The sad fact is, even with beautiful liturgies and pristine teaching, if your parishioners aren't having many kids, or people are moving away, it's going to die out eventually. Bishop Gregory yesterday was giving our parish high praise for the number of children in attendance. Why? Because we're an exception to the rule. And part of it might have something to do with the fact that we're in a rust-belt town that's managed to reinvent itself. Of course good outreach, a lively parish culture, and an attitude of welcoming strangers are all helpful too.

Also, FWIW, Bishop Gregory noted good parish growth in other, non-traditional (for Carpatho-Rusyns) places, like Florida. So I wouldn't say the Carpatho-Rusyn tradition is doomed. I think it does need to break out of an ethnic mold, as with many Orthodox groups here, and some are taking that need seriously. I'd also like to see Carpatho-Rusyns "evangelize" the rest of the American Orthodox with some of their wonderful, unique traditions- particularly prostopinije. I think it's an ideal system of chant (versus Byzantine, Znamenny, or modern Russian choral stuff) for getting congregations involved while maintaining a high standard of beauty and possibilities for professional musicianship. I would especially like to see OCA parishes start giving more respect to their Carpatho-Rusyn roots and start using prostopinije more earnestly (as opposed to a handful of token CR settings here and there.)

I don't think anyone on this forum has done what you accuse them of. Most people seem to be saying the RDL is only a symptom of a larger problem. ISTR there were longs discussions about this years back.

there are some communities who use a different book set altogether, season pending.

For example, one community uses the old translation due to such a convenient presentation of liturgical flow. It features full antiphons, and augmented litanies, the works - older melodies, too. I can't wait to use this, again