www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Protest Revision of Your Divine Liturgy !

C'mon people! Where's the strong posts of protest? It's so easy to derail a thread that has such promise like this one. Is outrage that there is less outrage! Burn those calories in angry protest!!! Raise your blood pressure over an issue you have no real control over! Send your checks for Fr. Serge's book. Read it through and through. Run to the Orthodox church where everything is perfect! Don't lose steam now....page 3 was going so strong, what happened?

While "on Eagles Wings" in being set to prostopinije tone 9, make the full revision and translate it into Latin! Revise the proposed liturgy revision with your own "hit parade" of cover versions to suit every fancy.

Seriously, this thread started off with a well thought out proposition (of which I don't agree with all the points), and like most threads on this topic of topics has degenerated into the usual silliness surrounding this debate.

in response to the original post:
1) after telling your priest you don't want the DL revised, what can he do that you haven't already done? Withholding your tithe will only close your parish faster.
2) Write you Eparch first before step 1. There is more at stake.
3) Perhaps this should be step 1.
4) presuming you obtain actual copies of the proposed liturgy rather than initial documents which can and will be disputed. Little litanies were lost in Parma/Van nuys back in the 70's folks.
5) support Fr Serge's efforts to control our heirarchs and buy his book with the money you saved by not tithing.
6) when the revised liturgy arrives in your parish, take time to actually try it before you throw it away. The advice given in the original post amounts to 'don't vote in November, the outcome won't change'.

Yes our dear priests will likely have no choice in the matter but close the parish because their parishioners left without first seeing what the change was really about. As to speaking out with impunity, I know from experience that it does come back to haunt you. Will it be "too late" once the revision comes out? There has been change before , there will continue to be change after.

One can already check out other churches without waiting for the revision. If you are anxious to leave the Pittsburgh Metropolia for Orthodox jurisdictions, don't let the spectre of a translation change get in your way.

Steve
(Since this thread will most likely be edited/removed it is also posted on my blog)

Not everywhere in Parma. We take them per the Liturgikon. You were there.
FDD

p.s. Don't you think is a bit ridiculous? And you wonder why your posts get "edited/deleted"? Anyone commenting on liturgy would be in the same boat, by that broad brush.

I agree, FDD.

Without attempting in any way, shape or form to speak for Father Serge, I would guess that, while he probably appreciates people reading his book, he has no illusions about exercising any control whatsoever over the hierarchs. If anything, he has appealed to reason, tradition and history in questioning the liturgy that is evidently going to be promulgated at some point. If the hierarchs allow themselves to be influenced by his appeal to these things, IMHO he is not controlling them, but rather reminding them of something they already know.

Let us not lose hope in running the race!

Gordo

In a week and a half I'll be Orthodox. I grew up in the BCC. After reading about the Union of Uzhorod,(of which there is no written record), Brest-Litovsk, Father Toth, Father Chornock, Bishop Ireland, Bishop Tackach, Ea Semper, Cum Data Fuerit, Revised Liturgy , minimal to no Slavonic, et al, enough is enough. We will never be fully EASTERN under Rome.

I'm not saying the Orthodox church doesn't have It's problems. BUT, WEEKLY VESPERS,(45 minutes), Divine Liturgy (90 minutes), STANDING during the Liturgy, some Slavonic every Sunday, works for me. It's the full EASTERN expression.

I hope it eventually works out for the EC churches, but has history taught us anything?

You are correct. Your parish is one of the few that does the full recension. I had meant that since the 70's in general there had been a softening of the liturgical usage of litanies in what was then the Parma Eparchy and is now the Van Nuys Eparchy.

I seem to do poorly at written satire though. I should just stay away from Byzcath as it no longer seems healthy for me to read or post here.

Steve

Control the hierarchs? Me? Allow me to assure everyone that there is no hierarch, in this world or the next, who is in any sense subject to my control! There are a few hierarchs who have the misfortune to be friends of mine and who, on that basis, would probably be kind enough to give me a hearing on some issues, but that's as far as it goes.

Then again, I'm not much of a control freak - I can't even control the dog, let alone the cat. The books in my library often seem to lead wild, free lives of their own.

Even Pope Benedict XVI has remarked more than once that he cannot control the whole Church - and since there are more-or-less 3,000 hierarchs at any given moment, I would take it for granted that His Holiness cannot control them all, though he can certainly call a bishop to order (which is normally done in private).

Come to think of it, I can't really control the TV set. If I could, my favorite programs would not be interrupted by commercials.

Fr. Serge

Bless Father

C'mon, let's be serious. All of this is entirely your fault! Let's blame Fr Serge, because if he hadn't made the attempt to educate people, this nasty disagreement could have been avoided and everyone could have went meekly into neo-latin ambiguity. And it is a well known fact that Fr Serge keeps ALL the bishops on a short leash, and only lets them outside twice a day to do their business! I would love to gather up some of these folks and lock them in Solovki until they realize what they are throwing away. Maybe a winter of full services would do them some good. Besides, when it's 40 degrees below outside, nothing beats pokloni to keep warm!

A slightly tonque in cheek Alexandr

Steve, I guess I am just not getting it - it is somewhat difficult to make out your "satire" above on one hand when you make other statements like on the other to those who disagree with the revisions.

With Alexandr, on the other hand, it is a bit easier to figure out...
FDD

Etnick,

I certainly don't fault anyone for desiring to be more Eastern!

But I don't think you are being entirely fair to Rome or to Eastern Catholics, for that matter.

To be sure, there are reasons for bitterness on both sides, as has been covered here on this forum innumerable times. Unfortunately, the history of our ancestors (spiritual or physical) is completely out of our, Rome's or...even Fr. Serge's :p ) control!

If Rome has been anything since the Second Vatican Council, it has been encouraging of Eastern Catholics to recover our traditions, even in its own often stumbling ways. Various hierarchs, clergy and laity over the years have had varying levels of responses to the call for renewal. Some have responded well, while others have not. Such is the nature of change.

The bottom line? The Metropolia of Pittsburgh is faced with the decision to largely deconstruct its liturgical tradition, quite apart from any reference to other Byzantine jurisdictions within Orthodoxy or Catholicism, and quite at odds with Rome's directives for all liturgical translations. Thus far, thank God, it appears that the decision to promulgate is being held in abeyance. Let us hope that wiser heads prevail and hold off until a pan-jurisdictional English speaking effort can begin.

Returning to your decision, the last time I visited St. Paul/Minneapolis, Bishop Ireland was quite stone cold and lying passively in his tomb. Do you really want to use him and his scandalous reign over a century ago as part of your rationale for leaving?

And what of Slavonic? I attend a church that does not use - nor has ever used - Slavonic. Is that a reason to leave for Orthodoxy? Some jurisdictions there do not use Slavonic either.

I am curious what you read about the Union of Brest. Was it Borys Gudziak's fine work, Crisis and Reform: The Kyivan Metropolitinate, the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Genesis of the Union of Brest?

And to the best of my knowledge, there are no existing original texts of the Bible, either. But it does not prevent me from believing it to be inspired according to the teachings and canons of the Church.

And what of those centers of authentic Orthodox spiritual renewal within Eastern Catholic jurisdictions, such as Saint Elias in Canada, Holy Transfiguration in McClean, VA, Annunciation in Homer Glen, IL, Holy Resurrection Monastery in California and (praise God!) Holy Theophany Monastery in Washington state, etc etc etc (not to mention Father Serge's mission in Dublin as well as other wonderful locations throughout the world). Is your charge entirely fair that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be fully Eastern and fully Catholic?

I beg to differ.

Yes - the cumulative effect of stupidity and scandal over the years can create an almost irresistable momentum towards Orthodoxy. But, as you mention, they are not perfect as well.

The Orthodox Church has many fine and wonderful (and HOLY) people in it, some of whom are here on this forum. But sometimes Catholicity is a cross - it would be much easier to make the leap. I guess I hold out hope that I can become an Orthodox Christian and still remain in union with Rome, as the fathers teach us.

Blessings,

Gordo

Fr. Deacon Randolph,

Unfortunately many against the revisions seem to be unable to respond charitably to others who do not see them as major, like Stivvy, or have a wait and see approach, like Theist Gal. Both Cathy and Alexandr talked down to both of them, assuming that if anyone agrees with or is not upset about the revisions then that person must not know our tradition and doesn't know what they are talking about. That is the lack of charity that Steve is talking about and it is sad people aren't calling others out for it because they agree with their position.

Ironically, Cathy closes one of her posts with a quote from Archimandrite Robert Taft, the very man who reviewed and approved the revisions and recommended the inclusive language.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Father Deacon,

You find it ironic that Cathy closed her post with a quote from Father Taft, who, according to you, has expressed his approval of the revisions.

I find it ironic that no one has produced an authenticated quote from Father Taft to that effect. I'm in the process of writing something else, and I should like to quote Father Taft on a specific point. But until and unless I can find and quote the exact citation, I shall not use it, even though I know that he wrote what I have in mind.

If you consider it uncharitable to consider that a direct, authenticated quote is much more creditable than unverified indirect discourse, I shall have to live with it.

Father Serge

Dear Father,

Your point is well taken, however, Cathy's uncharitableness was not in quoting Fr. Taft but in her condescending attitude towards and patronization of Theist Gal and the criticism still stands.

As to my information I got it from Fr. Steven Hawkes-Teeples, professor of liturgics at the Pontifical Oriental Institute and former director of the Pittsburgh Archeparchial deacon formation program. I have no reason to doubt his veracity.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I just ask this question, would you want a non-Byzantine to tell you your look-alike Vatican II liturgy is o.k.? When a person leaves their church, and officially joins the Byzantine Church and has something to lose, then we'll talk.

For the life of me I cannot understand why Fr. Taft has o.k.'d inclusive language. That I will never understand, and perhaps Fr. Serge could explain why a scholar would want to take that approach to bringing the Liturgy "down," instead of lifting it up. Again, Fr. Taft's quote is right on -- the Liturgy is the mouth of the church. What does this new translation say about the Byzantine Church? You can draw your own conclusions.

Always, JMHO
Cathy

Cathy,

So rather than admit you were unkind to Theist Gal you'll make excuses why it is okay to be uncharitable.

Theist Gal cannot have an opionion because she is not a Byzantine Catholic, yet Alexandr who is not one either can because he agrees with you?

You were uncharitable to Theist Gal, period. You can defend your opinion, you can never defend lack of charity. You owe Theist Gal and Stivvy an apology.

Fr. Deacon Lance

So, let me get this straight. Father Taft is a supporter of inclusive language, and wants our Church to abandon the Ruthenian Recension, inventing our own new version.

He told Father Hawkes-Teeples this, and Father Hawkes-Teeples told you. And on that basis I should think this is a good idea?

Don't you think that before our Church makes a move as important as this, we should all have the benefit of consulting Father Taft's position, and see this opinion in writing?

Nick