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Jeff wrote:
Father David (twice, I believe) referred to a sense among the hierarchs and priests that they needed to be able to have a text of the Liturgy that COULD be celebrated in "about an hour" if optional texts were not taken - although he repeatedly deplored that kind of minimalism attitude. Jeff is correct. Father David did speak to this in his posts here. I do not remember his exact words but I do remember that he was speaking of �about an hour� and not �way under an hour�. For me the whole issue is rather silly. I know parishes that take every word and follow every rubric in the 1964 Chrystostom Liturgicon and manage to celebrate it in 70 minutes. They do it without being rushed, offer a 5 minute homily and distribute the Eucharist to over 100 people. They are the parishes that are actually growing. A legitimate short term step to a fuller Liturgy could easily be everything in the Levkulic Pew Book. That can certainly be done in an hour (even by the slowest priests and cantors).
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Well, it would have been nice to get an apology, since the comments did make me upset enough to cry.  But since the administrator says that I am the one who was uncharitable, I will bow to his unquestioned authority and apologize myself to anyone who was similarly hurt by any of my comments.
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Originally posted by ByzKat: Originally posted by Michael Cerularius:
[b] Why are we obsessed with being in and out of church in under an hour?
Father David (twice, I believe) referred to a sense among the hierarchs and priests that they needed to be able to have a text of the Liturgy that COULD be celebrated in "about an hour" if optional texts were not taken - although he repeatedly deplored that kind of minimalism attitude.
Yet almost all the posts from those who object to the changes say "UNDER an hour" - I have seen this many times.
Can anyone produce a quote from Father David or anyone else on the Liturgical Commission that ever mentions celebrating the Divine Liturgy in under an hour? Or is this basically an exaggeration for rhetorical effect?
Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski [/b]For the sake of it, I'll search for references or quotes to it. But quote or no quote, when one only has one verse antiphons, cuts out the little litanies, cuts out the 'podaj Hospodi' petitions, cuts out the Catuchuems litanies, etc. what do you think is happening? We live in a society that lives in one hour and half hour increments and the church is being expected to conform to this when we all know it should be the other way around. I'm not being confrontational, but I don't know any other way to say it. I don't need a quote from Fr. David and others on the commission to see what is happening. It is clear as to one of the reasons for chopping up the liturgy. mc
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Fr. Serge,
I am happy to hear you are not offended or angry at me as neither was my intention. I have no objection to your involvement and I quite agree the Metropolia does not exist in isolation. I do not agree with all the suggested changes. I also disagree with is the way some here are acting and the actions they are taking.
Happy Halloween and may the Great Pumpkin fill your pumpkin with ale.
Fr. Deacon Lance
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Father Deacon Lance wrote:
However I must ask how does saying Fr. Serge chose to involve himself imply dislike of him? When you repeatedly speak something that is not correct it carries with it the connotation of dislike. I�m glad to hear that you like him just fine. If you ever get together with him let me know. You can bring the bread and I will provide the Guinness (for you and me) and the Scotch (for Father Serge). Father Deacon Lance wrote:
I have no problem with Fr. Serge offering his scholarly opinion and having his ideas heard. My post refers to the fact that Fr. Serge got involved and he is now going to take both praise and heat (like Steve's) for this involvement. It is to be expected that is all. I�m really glad to hear this! This did not come across in your posts. I agree that Father Serge should take both praise and criticism for his work. I have known him to be open to criticism, and even to change an opinion or two when good scholarship suggests it. To date, though, you have not offered much of either. Your repeated comments about him have been pretty limited to his �choos[ing] to insert himself� and suggest that you are more eager to silence a scholar rather than listen to what he has to say. I hope that you will also agree that those who are proposing a revision of our liturgical inheritance should also take �both praise and heat�. John 
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Father Deacon Lance wrote:
Happy Halloween and may the Great Pumpkin fill your pumpkin with ale. I believe that Father Serge�s parish is following the Julian calendar. Maybe we should all hold our Halloween Greetings for 13 days?
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"I believe that Father Serge�s parish is following the Julian calendar.
Maybe we should all hold our Halloween Greetings for 13 days?"
Is outrage! Everyone knows the Great Pumpkin only rises out of the pumpkin patch on Gregorian Halloween! :p
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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Originally posted by Administrator:
...offer a 5 minute homily... Sorry to interject off topic, but, a 5 minute homily?!?!
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Lance,
I must disagree, not because of anything you said... but because I am byzantine and should do so on principle of the matter.
i believe they are using the Old Druidic Calendar before the Reform of Tara, but after the reform of Cedric the turnip hater.
Actually they couldn't really be using the Druidic Calendar because the Pumpkin is from the New World, and the Druids wouldn't know what a pumpkin is anyway.
John
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Actually the Great Pumpkin is a modernist New World custom, and is only applicable to the New Squash, Decorative Gourds, and Other Pumpkin-like and Similar Viney Crops Calendar. But as for me - I got a....r-rock.
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Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo: Originally posted by Administrator:
[b]
...offer a 5 minute homily... Father Deacon, Do you consider 5 minutes to be too long? :p A priest friend of mine who is also one of the best preachers I have ever heard says that when he took homiletics he was taught that "if you can't say what you want to say in 5 minutes then you're not going to say it in 10 or 20 minutes." I'd gladly give up even a good 2 minute homily to get back all the prayers that belong to the Liturgy! John
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Um... Father Deacon... you were a day early. Try again tonight. and.... Sorry to interject off topic, but, a 5 minute homily?!?! Was like this in century of the fourth Tsargrad, when Vladyka Ivan Chysostomos rebuke even Tsarina? Was NOT! Is OUTRAGE!!  Jeff
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A priest friend of mine who is also one of the best preachers I have ever heard says that when he took homiletics he was taught that "if you can't say what you want to say in 5 minutes then you're not going to say it in 10 or 20 minutes."
I'd gladly give up even a good 2 minute homily to get back all the prayers that belong to the Liturgy! In my homiletics course the instructor had a 15-minute egg timer. When the single "ding" went off regardless of where the student was in the homily he brusquely said "Next!" or "Sit down. Too long." 
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Originally posted by ebed melech: Originally posted by Etnick:
[b] In a week and a half I'll be Orthodox. I grew up in the BCC. After reading about the Union of Uzhorod,(of which there is no written record), Brest-Litovsk, Father Toth, Father Chornock, Bishop Ireland, Bishop Tackach, Ea Semper, Cum Data Fuerit, Revised Liturgy , minimal to no Slavonic, et al, enough is enough. We will never be fully EASTERN under Rome.
I'm not saying the Orthodox church doesn't have It's problems. BUT, WEEKLY VESPERS,(45 minutes), Divine Liturgy (90 minutes), STANDING during the Liturgy, some Slavonic every Sunday, works for me. It's the full EASTERN expression.
I hope it eventually works out for the EC churches, but has history taught us anything?
I certainly don't fault anyone for desiring to be more Eastern!
But I don't think you are being entirely fair to Rome or to Eastern Catholics, for that matter.
To be sure, there are reasons for bitterness on both sides, as has been covered here on this forum innumerable times. Unfortunately, the history of our ancestors (spiritual or physical) is completely out of our, Rome's or...even Fr. Serge's :p ) control!
If Rome has been anything since the Second Vatican Council, it has been encouraging of Eastern Catholics to recover our traditions, even in its own often stumbling ways. Various hierarchs, clergy and laity over the years have had varying levels of responses to the call for renewal. Some have responded well, while others have not. Such is the nature of change.
The bottom line? The Metropolia of Pittsburgh is faced with the decision to largely deconstruct its liturgical tradition, quite apart from any reference to other Byzantine jurisdictions within Orthodoxy or Catholicism, and quite at odds with Rome's directives for all liturgical translations. Thus far, thank God, it appears that the decision to promulgate is being held in abeyance. Let us hope that wiser heads prevail and hold off until a pan-jurisdictional English speaking effort can begin.
Returning to your decision, the last time I visited St. Paul/Minneapolis, Bishop Ireland was quite stone cold and lying passively in his tomb. Do you really want to use him and his scandalous reign over a century ago as part of your rationale for leaving?
And what of Slavonic? I attend a church that does not use - nor has ever used - Slavonic. Is that a reason to leave for Orthodoxy? Some jurisdictions there do not use Slavonic either.
I am curious what you read about the Union of Brest. Was it Borys Gudziak's fine work, Crisis and Reform: The Kyivan Metropolitinate, the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Genesis of the Union of Brest?
And to the best of my knowledge, there are no existing original texts of the Bible, either. But it does not prevent me from believing it to be inspired according to the teachings and canons of the Church.
And what of those centers of authentic Orthodox spiritual renewal within Eastern Catholic jurisdictions, such as Saint Elias in Canada, Holy Transfiguration in McClean, VA, Annunciation in Homer Glen, IL, Holy Resurrection Monastery in California and (praise God!) Holy Theophany Monastery in Washington state, etc etc etc (not to mention Father Serge's mission in Dublin as well as other wonderful locations throughout the world). Is your charge entirely fair that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be fully Eastern and fully Catholic?
I beg to differ.
Yes - the cumulative effect of stupidity and scandal over the years can create an almost irresistable momentum towards Orthodoxy. But, as you mention, they are not perfect as well.
The Orthodox Church has many fine and wonderful (and HOLY) people in it, some of whom are here on this forum. But sometimes Catholicity is a cross - it would be much easier to make the leap. I guess I hold out hope that I can become an Orthodox Christian and still remain in union with Rome, as the fathers teach us.
Blessings,
Gordo [/b]Using Bishop Ireland or any of my other examples of the past, is only a slight fraction on how I arrived at my decision. To wrap it up I'll say what a former BCC priest told me a long time ago. I'm tired of the "schizophrenia" of the BCC. I'm not bitter, hold no contempt towards anyone,and will not trash my former faith...But I don't see myself looking back either.
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Originally posted by Administrator: Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo: [b] Originally posted by Administrator:
[b]
...offer a 5 minute homily... Sorry to interject off topic, but, a 5 minute homily?!?! [/b]
Do you consider 5 minutes to be too long? :p
A priest friend of mine who is also one of the best preachers I have ever heard says that when he took homiletics he was taught that "if you can't say what you want to say in 5 minutes then you're not going to say it in 10 or 20 minutes."
I'd gladly give up even a good 2 minute homily to get back all the prayers that belong to the Liturgy!
John [/b]yes, I've heard a number of people quote that line about 5 minutes. In my experience, those who quote it are the same people who long for the 40 minute "Byzantine Mass." Using that reasoning, Saint John Chrysostom never said anything at all... Does anyone think the Sermon on the Mount was delivered in less than 5 minutes? Protest the abbreviated homily as well. 
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