www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Protest Revision of Your Divine Liturgy !

Dear Fr Serge:

appears that you haven't followed college football in the US for sometime. Brady Quinn, Paddy Mullen, and a host of Mc's can be found on the current Fighting Irish football roster. There are some Poles, but they seem to be in the minority.

Fr. Serge,

Blahoslovy!

When I was in Killorglin, County Kerry, I was shocked to see Irishmen drinking a certain beer that we enjoy in the St. Louis area. When I told the barmaid that I was taken aback seeing the Irish drinking said beer, she shot back "You're not tellin' the Irish how to be Irish are ya?"

BTW, she also told me "There's no Murphy's in County Kerry!" when I asked for it. The night before I had my first taste of Murphy's in Fermoy and I loved it!

Dear mc,

Regardless, the proposed People's Book DOES have the "Grant this, O Lord" petitions, the Litany of the Catechumens, and the second of the two Litanies of the Faithful.

By comparison, our last official service book for the Metropolia, in 1978, omitted the third antiphon and the Beatitudes, the Litany of the Catechumens and BOTH of the Litanies of the Faithful, and made the Litany "over the gifts" (text omitted)and the Litany of Thankgiving optional. I remember the point in the 1990's when our parish was ordered by the bishop to take the latter two at every Liturgy.

None of the official people' service books for the Metropolia have had the litany between the antiphons; in our Slavonic chant books, the responses were taken without inserting the priest's and deacons parts in the middle! This is still the practice in some Carpatho-Russian Orthodox parishes.

Not trying to say we can't do better, but several of the items you mentioned ARE in the proposed new book.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

I will gladly take a trip out to Phoenix if you are truly interested in learning liturgics. Just let me know.


Sarcastic? Moi? Really now Deacon John, I wouldn't say sarcastic, just tired of attempts by revisionists to destroy the faith of our fathers.

I can assure you that I am quite aware of that fact. However what is altered through neccesity cannot be compared to what is altered by choice. When there is no deacon present, the priest has no choice. Who is holding the gun to your head and making you omit 1/3 of the liturgy?
As far as to what I am aware of and what I am not, rest assured, if I learned anything during my 6 years in Jordanville, it was Liturgics. May I ask which seminary you attended?

My dear Deacon, without the Eucharist, there would be no need to preserve any other tradition. The Church would cease. And this is the very thing that you and others are proposing to alter even more!

This could be the source of some of the difficulties that you are having. I would not presume to critique the Latin mass if I did not understand Latin. How than can you defend altering the Divine Liturgy if you cannot even read it as it should be celebrated?
I realize that my words are blunt. Please understand, I do not mean to pick on you. You have done me no harm that I am aware of, and I wish no ill will towards you. I am just tired of the rhetoric being spewn out by those, who self admitedly, cannot even read the Liturgy as it is supposed to be celebrated. Rome gave you the Ordo Celebrationis in 1942. You might consider following it. Currently, the BCC is not even faithful to the dictates that Rome gave you to return to your liturgical roots. If you did, then some of the other services would re-enter the liturgical life of the Church.

Alexandr

I would suggest this advice is actually dated, having myself attended liturgies regularly at varioius Antiochian parishes over the course of the last few years. Every parish and mission I've been to maintains Saturday vespers, Sunday Orthros and then Liturgy. I would say an hour and a half, including sermon, would be the rough average of the liturgy itself (plus an hour for Orthros). They are also very zealous about maintaining the fasts in my experience.

I don't see eye to eye with them on all things, but I can't fault them in this regard. The OCA in my experience is also fairly similar, except third hour in place of Orthros.

Now back to my whiskey.

Nicholas wrote:

>>
I heard that a bishop has said he "had to" promulgate the Liturgy! Astounding! His excuse was that the committee had done all its work, and a bishop didn't have the right to veto it, in fact he was only going to sign the Revised Liturgy (which he didn't like) because he had to.
So what does that do to the idea that we... should rely on our bishops to guard the tradition?
<<

Nicholas is right... As the Romans have learned in the 40 years since their Vatican II council, the bishops cannot be trusted. Very sad. And now we're discovering the same thing in our own orb.

I took instruction to enter the BCC from a bi-titual priest who's ordination was Roman. In one of our first classes, he taught us St. John Chrysostom's observation, "The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of rotten bishops."

But then, I am only a dues-payer who lives in eastern Pennsylvania, so what do I know?

Alexandr,

I serve in a parish that uses the Blue Book, on occasion with Fr. Elias who serves liturgy according to the Red Book almost to the letter, even he doesn't take the angel of peace litany twice at least he hasn't when I have served with him, and at the Seminary where the new rubrics are followed. I enjoy serving at them all and am edified by the Liturgy at all of them.

I think we need to seperate what is essential to the liturgy and what is not. One may prefer the Liturgy served to the letter, but abbreviating one or another non-essential items does not affect the essence of the Liturgy. Abbreviations have existed for along time and even the saints allowed for them. The proposed Liturgy as to what Litanies are taken or omitted simply codifies what is standard practice in the Metropolia and ACROD. Does it differ from standard ROCOR or OCA practice, yes. Is it unrecognizable as the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, hardly.

Although to some take one Litany out and all of sudden something is unrecognizable. Case in point, one OCA bishop after going to Vespers at New Skete said the service was unrecognizable. Now granted New Skete usage is different from standard OCA, the structural difference in New Skete Vespers vs standard Vespers is New Skete has moved O Joyful Light to the beginning of the service and moved the Great Litany from the beginning to the end joining it with the Angel of Peace Litany. These changes make it different butcertainly not unrecognizable. The same could be said structurally of the Tridentine and Pauline Uses of the Roman Rite. But Liturgics are a touchy issue as implementation of the Nikonian and Pauline reforms demonstrate.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The Holy Synod of the Hierarchs of the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church has just mandated the clergy to introduce the faithful to such important documents as the Ordo Celebrationis, the Liturgy Constitution of Vatican II, the Vatican II Decree on the Eastern Churches, the Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen and the Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

Will the Council of Hierarchs of the Pittsburgh Metropolia direct the clergy of that Metropolia to do the same for the faithful of that Metropolia?

Father Serge

I disagree strongly. It�s not about individual preferences. The handing down of Liturgy is part of the handing down of worship, which is (in turn) part of the handing down of Holy Tradition. It is not the job of the tiny Ruthenian Church to take upon itself the revision of what belongs to the entire Byzantine Church. There is nothing in the Liturgy that is non-essential and anything that is removed does affect the essence of the Liturgy. The problem in our Church is that we have not prayed the fullness of the Liturgy in many generations and, therefore, are not able to comprehend the damage we do when we edit it to suit the personal preferences of a few in our Church.

There is a difference in allowing abbreviations and changing the standard. I don�t know of any saint that sought to prohibit any priest from celebrating according to the standard.

This statement is incorrect. Johnstown does not prohibit its clergy from celebrating according to the standard. Metropolitan Nicholas is on record as favoring bringing the celebration of the Liturgy in the parishes up to the official Ruthenian standard. Further, we are talking not only about skipping a few litanies (as unjust as that is to God). There are many more rubrical changes that Metropolitan Nicholas (nor any other Orthodox hierarch) is planning to mandate.

Finally, even if the proposed liturgical changes were a simple codification of the current use (which it most definitely is not) one need only glance at the Vatican�s Liturgical Instruction to see that we are to supposed to be codifying any local usage. We are supposed to be restoring the Liturgy to its fullness.

Whether the Liturgy is unrecognizable if celebrated according to the proposed reform is irrelevant. Liturgy is not about us. It is about worshipping God. There is absolutely no reason to change it.

New Skete usage has been overwhelmingly rejected by the OCA (as well as the rest of Orthodoxy).

A wonderful announcement!

In the short term, probably not (but we can hope, pray and encourage them).

In the long term, yes. Those proposing the reforms will eventually be replaced by a younger generation, one that will be more faithful to our official Liturgy.

Question: Did the Ruthenian Greek Catholics in Europe sent observers (or participants) to this meeting of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church? I hope they did and will mandate these documents in their eparchies. Then I will hope that all Byzantine hierarchs everywhere will put pressure on our God-loving bishops and encourage them to do also mandate these documents. It is never too late to do what is right!

Whoa, whoa there Deacon Lance!! You presume to have the autority to decide what is essential in the Divine Liturgy and what is not???? Pray, when did the bishops of the BCC become an Ecumenical Council? All, I repeat, ALL of the Divine Liturgy is essential! Omitting portions of the rubrics is accomodated by Economia in times of dire need. But I see no Tatars setting fires to the doors of the BCC Churches in America. That is about the only reason for adjusting rubrics. Are you aware, that if the priest serving Liturgy should drop over dead in the middle of the service, according to Canon Law, another priest will come and finish the entire service, over top of the priests body if needed? What justification do you propose for altering the liturgy? To satisfy the personal opinion of a few parishoners?

As regards to the example you gave of New Skete, well, not to speak disparagingly of another jurisdiction, but there is question as to the very Orthodoxy of New Skete, and this opinion is held not only by my jurisdiction, but amongst the vast majority of world Orthodoxy, OCA included. Just because someone else does something does not make it correct. And I can assure that what New Skete is doing is neither Orthodox, nor even remotely correct.

We all view things through the eyes of our experiences. You as an American, are shaded by your experiences. Which is fine, but The Divine Liturgy transcends all regional and national divisions. I can walk into the Divine Liturgy being celebrated in Belgrade, Presov, Moscow, Athens, Jerusalem, Nairobi, Peking and New York, and other than language, it will be identical.

Alexandr

Father Serge,

How do they intend to do the introduction? Are their any supporting materials which will be created to assist the priests, apart from the documents themselves?

This is wonderful news. Personally I think every Greek-Catholic jurisdiction should consider this.

In Christ,

Gordon

Yes, Kyr Milan of Uzhorod was there - I saw him in the synodal photo. Also the new draft catechism has been submitted for Kyr Petro (Stasiuk)'s review.

The beatification process for Metropolitan Andrey (whose is largely responsible for staying the course to get the Ordo promulgated) has moved to the next stage.

And yes, recommendations for additional efforts to instruct the faithful in "liturgical terms and the official liturgical texts of our Church" were made. All in all, sounds like a very fruitful Sobor.
FDD

"There is nothing in the Liturgy that is non-essential and anything that is removed does affect the essence of the Liturgy."

Well you disagree with myself and every hierarch and saint through the ages who has added, deleted, rearranged, or edited the Liturgy.

"There is a difference in allowing abbreviations and changing the standard. I don�t know of any saint that sought to prohibit any priest from celebrating according to the standard."

As Fr. David pointed out the standard remains the Greek and Old Slavonic Liturgikons printed in Rome. The proposed Liturgy is an adaption of these. I also have no proof that any priest will prohibited from celebrating according to Red Book. And if history is any indication each priest will indeed be free to serve as he see fit regardless whta is promulgated.

Fr. Deacon Lance