www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Protest Revision of Your Divine Liturgy !

I think all of us have had the experiences where a 5 minute homily was about 4 mnutes too long and a 20 minute homily was way too short. :rolleyes:

I have no issue with longer homilies, provided they are well preached. My estimate (given without benefit of a stopwatch) is that the length of the homily in most parishes is about 7-10 minutes (priest or deacon, Byzantine and Latin parishes).

I certainly agree with Father Deacon John that Jesus took more than 5 minutes to deliver the Sermon on the Mount. But then he didn�t have hierarchs telling him to get the entire event (liturgy AND the sermon) done in about an hour.

I�ll make a deal with Father Deacon John. If he will start protesting the proposed abbreviated Liturgy I will start protesting the 5 minute homily.

Etnick,

You're not going to hear any argument from me on that point, although I think one will find profound differences between Parma and Passaic. (Perhaps that is your point! )

There are, of course, other Eastern Catholic jurisdictions.

I am glad that you say you are not leaving with any bitterness, but the rationale you stated previously indicated only the past failures of the Latin Church and the BCC and the impossibility of living a fully Eastern ecclesial life in communion with Rome.

It would be wrong of me if I did not encourage you to reconsider staying in communion with Rome, but I doubt it would have any effect. Certainly know that you are always welcome to return. We need more Orthodox minded members to "carry the orientale lumen" within the communion of Catholic churches.

Peace and all good,

Gordo

Do you realize how tiring this is? BTW, who is listening? Face it, the Bishops have no plan on how to bring us closer to the East. At the Cathedral in Parma, they still kneel on Sundays. They are to be the example!!! Again, where's the plan and who's in on it?

Yes, I hear the Melkites are the most Eastern maybe we should join that jurisdiction!

Slavipodvizhnik wrote:
"So when one defends the Faith and stands up for Tradition, as Cathy and others have done, then they are accused of being uncharitable? I say the very Angels in Heaven rejoice over such "uncharitableness". In St Paul's words “I have handed over that which I received”, let me ask the revisionists if THEY wil be handing over to their children " that which they have recieved"."

Amen! Amen! Amen!

And people wonder why there are those who are converting to Orthodoxy? (Note to those who just got hysterical, I am not advocating for mass conversions to Orthodoxy). But why is it that what Alexandr, who happens to be a Traditional Orthodox, has written would be agreed by his hierarchs, yet I have not seen one of our hierarchs with the same view. If someone has, please let me know. When I don't see Vespers or Matins, full Liturgies, fasting periods followed and/or even mentioned, and a whole other list of items at 95% of our churches then I have to reach that conclusion. I would be delighted to be proven wrong.

But I'll let you all in on a little secret. The above points are why people are leaving us and joining them. (and I hate to write in 'us' 'them' terms but that's the best I could come up with) And actually, the real way to word it is that they don't think that they are really leaving the Byzantine Church, but they think that the Byzantine Church has left them. This new revision is the final straw for many. Many are going to a place (Orthodoxy in this case) which is truer to Tradition.

And to those who say, try out the new Liturgy, wait and see what it's like. We've all seen chopped up liturgies. Now we appear to have chopped up liturgies with feminizations as well coming our way. :rolleyes:

While it's sad to see people go, what can we tell them? Wait around, you're actually going to like the chopped up feminized revised liturgy? They'll run even faster.

I encourage everyone to read or reread Slavipodvizhnik's post and ask yourself why are we meddling with Tradition? Why are we not handing down Tradition? Does this revised liturgy bring us closer or farther from being Orthodox in Union with Rome? Does the revised Liturgy follow Pope JPII and Pope Benedicts calls to return to our Orthodox roots?

Will our hierarchs step up and defend Tradition and restore Tradition to the majority of our churches is what remains to be seen.

If not, then the exodus will grow and the sinking ship will continue its plunge. That's not a threat, that's reality. As I've wrote here many times, what a shame that the energy, time, and money that has been put into the revised liturgy was not invested in evangelization.

mc

Here's my counter offer: I prefer a positive perspective, so I am much more willing to support the fullness of our liturgical tradition.

I'll agree to that as well.

Jeff Mierzejewski

Scotch indeed! Is outrage! We are drinking pure, holy, Irish single malt!

My, this thread is suddenly very busy today.

Guiness outside of the Homeland is not all that well recommended - the bottled stuff is not adequate, and the kegs don't survive the trip too well. Have you tried Dark Trappist? (A certain brand of beer is popular around St Louis, but I wouldn't dare post the brand name!).

As for those desiring to flee from the prospect of the one-hour Liturgy and five-minute sermon: stay away from the Antiochian Archdiocese. Metropolitan Antony (Bashir) of thrice-blessed memory seriously told his priests, frequently, that "the Mass should begin at 11 and end at 12, with a 5-minute sermon". The moral is to look before you leap.

Marshall McLuhan pointed out more than 40 years ago that the one-eyed monster has seriously cut down the attention span of most Americans. So if we wish to serve traditionally, it behooves us to let people know in advance that the Divine Liturgy is not planned for the length of a television show, or a music CD.

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi (or, if you prefer the vernacular: on the first day of the week Gloria was ill on the subway).

Fr. Serge

Agreed! I dislike protesting anything � even 5 minute homilies. I was not overly happy to join your protest against short homilies. It�s always better to speak positively and propose the restoration of our official liturgical tradition based upon good scholarship and the fact that it works everywhere it is tried.

Such nice, politically correct terminology. Webster's defines fullness as "the highest or fullest state, condition, or degree". Is this what you see with the proposed changes? if you do, let me reccomend a good opthamologist. Chopped up, abbreviated, condensed, shortened, sawed off, mangled beyond recognition, these choices would be perhaps more accurate in their description.
I truly despise politically correct terminology. Basically what it means is
"I'm too embarrassed to say what I really mean". Say what you mean and mean what you say.
Or better yet, come to Church with me this Sunday. I'll show you the "fullness of our liturgical tradition". Maybe you'll come away with an appreciation of how hollow your words ring compared to present and proposed realities.

Alexandr

Fr Serge:

I knew John had to be wrong when he posted you enjoyed Scotch. (To tell the truth, I have no idea why he would bring you clear tape, when he and Fr Deacon Lance would be enjoying Guiness.) I know no self-respecting Irish would drink anything but Irish single malt.

While an undergrad at USC, we'd celebrate football victories over the Fighting Irish with Bushmills.

Well said, Alexandr.

Alexandr:

I am well aware of the definition for "fullness," which is why I chose that word as opposed to any other.

Are you willing to foot the airfare for 8 to travel from PHX to PIT? If you are, we might be persuaded to join you this weekend. Thanks for the invitation.

BTW, is there a deacon that serves at your parish?

Alexandr:

I am well aware of the definition for "fullness," which is why I chose that word as opposed to any other.

Are you willing to foot the airfare for 8 to travel from PHX to PIT? If you are, we might be persuaded to join you this weekend. Thanks for the invitation.

BTW, is there a deacon that serves at your parish? [/QUOTE]

Dear Fr Deacocon John,
Sitting on my desk in front of me is a copy of the Sluzhebnik: Ruthenian Recension, Rome 1952. This, I think that we can agree, should be the "fullness of our liturgical traditions" made manifest. I don't know how well you read Slavonic, but what I read here, and what I have seen proposed resemble each other about as much as Hilary Clinton and Mother Teresa! The offer for the opthamologist referral still stands.

As far as deacons, we do have 2: Otec Nikolai, who rarely serves anymore as he is in his 90's, and Otec Serafim, who cannot attend as often as he would like, traveling 200 miles each way.

If you want to see a local example, here is a website with directions: http://members.cox.net/holy_archangels/index.html
I'll let Priest John know you are coming. He is a convert, and would welcome the opportunity to discuss the fullness of tradition with you.

Alexandr

Alexandr:

I thought the offer was to accompany you to your parish or will you be in Phoenix this weekend?

BTW, I know a parishioner from the Holy Archangels parish in Phoenix. Quite pleasant fellow, not the least sarcastic...

I can certainly understand how difficult it may be for the deacons that serve your parish to serve the liturgical services given their respective age and commutes. You certainly have to agree that when a deacon does not serve the Divine Liturgy that too lacks the fullness of the liturgical tradition. Given the realities, the priest cannot pray the inaudible prayers while he is intoning the litanies. So in this instance the priest's own prayer is "chopped up, abbreviated, condensed, shortened, sawed off, mangled beyond recognition..." because he has to perform the deacon's role, but you are not even aware of that.

No deficiencies are ideal, but this is what happens in many parishes. Restoring the fullness of our traditon is not just a matter of celebrating the fullness of our litugical traditon. It certainly is the source, but it does not end there in the Liturgy.

BTW, my eyesight is fine, don't need an opthamologist. If I needed my vision checked I'm sure anny one of my doctors from Mayo Clinic can refer me locally.


In re the Slavonic, I can't and don't read Slavonic, and I understand even less.

The "Fighting Irish of Notre Dame" have been mostly Polish for the last couple of generations. What can we do?

Fr. Serge