www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Singing the Liturgy

I am going ask all to take a deep breath and cool off here. There are some merits in both Professor Thompson's post and Cantor JKF's post. The point of choral vs congregational singing was not part of the premise of this thread, and it should not be discussed since it has little to do if any with the liturgical revisions proposed. It should be started as a a new thread in either Faith and Worship or Kliros Forums. We seemingly are trying to bring in issues that have nothing to do with the revisions that are proposed. This section is not a dumping ground for all that may be preceived as ills or problems in the church.

Next, I do not believe that in the above posts (going back to the top of page 2) Father Serge was making any direction to either clergy or cantors, but rather giving an observation of his priestly experience. This section is not a restricted section except for topic content. All posters may offer posts as long as they deal with the thread subject and they are offered according to the rules of ByzCath. If you have an issue with someone, deal with it via the Private Message system.

I am going to ask that all posters follow the rules regarding posts, and that this thread be kept on topic.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

My thanks both to Father Anthony and to Cantor JKF.

I certainly have no authority to impose anything on much of anybody outside my own parish (and let me assure you that I make few efforts to impose anything on my parishioners - you catch flies with honey, not with vinegar!). However, our varying experiences of this and that can help us to understand how things have developed, scholarship can help us understand how things have developed and perhaps should develop - and it is not uncommon for someone who is a tad distant from the fray to have a slightly more objective view of whatever the argument is about.

That said, anyone who dislikes my postings is under no obligation to read them!

Fr. Serge

Let's see:

1. Priests take the major part of the Anaphora silently, thereby not permitting the people to "hear".

2. The choir sings the responses FOR the people, thereby not permitting the people to "sing". When people CAN respond (even during the SILENT ANAPHORA!), professional worshippers and artisans in a-capella choral arrangements (and other operetta-like melodies) hog the work.

3. In some churches, Old Slavonic is used, thereby not permitting the poeple to "understand". Yeah, yeah. I can hear it now ... "Joe doesn't like our hushki papushki language."

And why are most "choirs" only versed in the Divine Liturgy ... err, the "Mass." Is that all there is?

I grew up in such a parish, but was more accustomed to being a passive spectator rather than an active participant. My family members prayed the rosary instead. There was nothing for them to do. Where did I learn to sing at the Liturgy? Not in my church. I learned at a Latin seminary during daily Masses. How wonderful to learn to give glory and praise (words that are sooooooo liturgical) in another church rather than one's own. After graduating, I didn't even know how to chant the Epistle. I read it like the Latins do. This situation was/is in many churches and cathedrals. No wonder why many youth go where they can participate in more preppy music. Our 'tradition(?)' is cliquish, gnostic, and ethnic-centered.

It is wonderful to teach children (or hand down/tradition) the faith with a melody of praise. Several times when my allergies acted up and I had to leave the temple, I was heartened to hear so many voices, especially children's voices, singing the responses. Our schola is made up of Byzan-teens, not old babas and papas who protect their turf like some snobbish clique. Our children 'work' at worship. If a dozen of boys are attending the altar, a group of girls are chanting the Psalms, singing the responses, and leading. Choir churches are basically spiritual welfare churches where many dependents rely on the talents and gifts of more professional voices.

Let the children come to the Lord!

Unfortunately, "Liturgy" is not the work of the people.

Anyway, why admire and cherish the art work of one's six-year old daughter when one can admire instead professional art at the museum?

Lift up your voices! Sing! Give glory and praise to the Almight One! Bring back the liturgy to the people!

Cantor Joe Thur

Suggestion: get a good recording of Sergei Rachmaninoff's choral Vigil (there's a wonderful one if you can find it - the St John Damascene Choir from Germany and the Russicum Choir from Rome) and treat yourself and your friends to an incomparable experience. Best way of all to do this (short of finding a church where they actually have a good choir and will use this music for a real Vigil) is to get copies of the scores, pass them out to your friends, turn on the stereo, and encourage everyone to sing. Splendiferous! It has been recorded at least once in English, but I don't know where - or if - the score is available.

Then, for two changes of pace, get on your seven-league boots or the modern equivalent, and make two pilgrimages:

first - a Saturday night Vigil at Saint Vladimir's Seminary (during the school year, obviously - and best to phone ahead and find out what time the service is). Mostly in English, sung magnificently, and no one is likely to object if you join in the singing (unless you have the kind of voice that could throw the Mormon Tabernacle Choir off key). Most people at service sing (it's done in double choir, by the way), a few prefer to listen, everyone prays.

second - a feast day Vigil at Holy Trinity Monastery, Jordanville. This will require some preparation (read carefully through the changeable parts of the service several times in whatever English version you prefer, bring along a prayer-book for the parts which are not likely to change, wear comfortable shoes, and get to the monastery early enough so that you can browse in the bookshop - I recommend not doing this in the dead of winter, when the roads can be a bit dangerous). Attune your ears and heart to Church-Slavonic for this one; if you have prepared adequately, you won't find it a barrier to intelligent and deeply prayerful involvement. Don't be in a rush; this is not a short service. But enjoy it and savour it.

The monastic chanting is enough to make you wonder whether this is not, perhaps, the vestibule of Paradise.

Fr. Serge

Dear Joe,

I also like congregational singing, and I do prefer it most of the time.

However, I don't think there is just one way that is acceptable. I have attended many liturgies that were in Slavonic, where there responses were made by the choir, and where the anaphora was taken silently. At some of these, I have been deeply moved, prayefully involved, and been intimiately connected to the action of the Liturgy. I don't think it can be so easily dismissed as misguided or wrong. It is certainly different, if you are used to praying with congregational singing. But for those used to choir Liturgies, perhaps congregational singing is distracting?

the unworthy,
Elias

I would like to ask those wish to continue the discussion on the merits of choral versus congregational singing to post on the thread started in Faith & Worship by myself.

Faith & Worship Thread

I would like for this this thread to remain on topic from here on out. If you have any question as to the topic's original question, please read the initial post.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator