www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Is Aliquippa the Model For Implementing the New Liturgy?

Very little has changed at St Ann's at this point. Of course we don't have a pastor assigned at this point and I think that Msgr. George does not feel that it is his place to make any major changes as the "Priest-in-residence."

The Admin wrote:
"I also understand that he has chopped several of the litanies from the Divine Liturgy. I do not put this down to an implementation of the Revised Liturgy but more so to the fact that this good priest may never have experienced a full Divine Liturgy (it is never done at the seminary). I also understand that he has responsibility for two parishes."

Did everyone read, I mean really read, what was written here. A priest, who comes out of our seminary, may never have experienced a full liturgy! Can someone get me some duct tape, because I need to wrap my head before it explodes.

It is never done at the seminary. And for that matter, for example, our catherdral here in Parma has the faithful kneeling on Sundays with chopped up Liturgies.

What kind of example is this for the faithful and for our future priests?

Why can't we change it, because of pastoral sensitivity we are told. But when litanies are removed, the heck with pastoral sensitivities? Give me a break.

And don't give me this organic growth garbage to justify what is happening there. Our seminary is simply a bastion of revisionism period. Church membership is on a decline, more and more revisions and chopping up of the liturgy are coming, and no one is supposed to ask what the heck is going on? And when they do that is called an attack? I guess the light of truth really does hurt.

Etnick, as you begin your membership in Orthodoxy today, please do pray for the Greek Catholic church, we are in serious need of prayer.

God willing, one day, the curtain will be brought down on the battering ram of revisionism that is replete in our church.

mc

Wow! An open admission by a revisionist as to how they all see what tradition is, something that is always subject to an individual's interpretation. Tradition is what was, is, and will be and when you continue to make changes the only person interpreting and making things their way is yourself and the rest of the revisionists.

By the way, it's really big of you to state that you wholeheartedly support beautiful and traditional liturgy. Of course, with only one verse antiphons, kneelers, pews, kneeling on Sundays, confessionals, pre-cut particles, litanies removed, rosaries, etc.

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I'm sure that some who have attended the Campbell church their entire life truly believe that their experience of liturgy is traditional. I am certainly not saying it is or should be thought of as such. I'm simply saying we have to cut people a little slack.

Well if the Campbell people think that they are traditional, there is one word to describe that thought: wrong. They are wrong. And if clergy are patronizing these wrong thoughts then shame on them.

How can someone be cutting all this slack yet claim to support traditional liturgies?

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Finally, regardless of whether or not there are full processions, little litanies or sand, I'm sure that I'll manage to sleep just fine, and I hope that no one else loses sleep over it either.

This is the standard, textbook, and worn out revisionist argument, that these are just petty and unimportant items that aren't worth worrying about. Well then, why take them out? Since they are immaterial then let's do them and you won't be bothered? It's really time to come up with a better argument than this old song and dance. Yeah, try the organic growth argument. Yeah, it's on the next page of the excuse manual.

mc

Dear MC,

I couldn't have said it better. I attended Etnick's reception into the Orthodox faith today, and boy does it look appealing. I sat through the entire service with one huge smile on my face, knowing I may be there soon. Why? I am tired of all the excuses! Being Orthodox means no more excuses for why Byzantines choose not to do the right thing. In fact, an older Byzantine who attended the service said to me, "If I were younger I'd be doing the same thing. Being here reminds me of the early days before Latinizations." The priest told me afterward that the church is more than half former Byzantines....hmmm, I wonder why??????

Sad, Sad, Sad, Sad, Sad.

Cathy

"Can someone get me some duct tape, because I need to wrap my head before it explodes"

PLEASE don't let your head explode!!! Your thoughts are NEEDED for the survival of the Greek Catholic Church.

Dear Cathy,

I'm sure it's very appealing. But it's a matter of faith: do you believe in what the Catholic Church says is true, or don't you?

If you do, then the bad liturgy is a cross to be borne for the sake of the gospel.

If you don't, then by all means join the Orthodox Church.

I can't follow you, if you go, as much as I might like to, because I believe Christ established his Church on the Rock, Peter, and that to deny the primacy is to deny Christ. I know this probably sounds needlessly confrontational, and I don't mean it to be, except that I am Byzantine _Catholic_ for a reason, and no amount of revisionists can touch that conviction.

By the way, today was the feast of St. Leo, Pope of Rome, who believed in a very strong form of universal jurisdiction, and whom the Orthodox venerate as a great saint. Holy Father Leo, pray for us, both Catholic and Orthodox!

I've got a lot of thoughts on this issue, but it's late. Perhaps another thread is needed.

For a much less obscure celebration of Pope St. Leo of Rome, check 18 February.

No, I would deny this - the Gospel is badly served by putting up with bad liturgy. Bad liturgy is a challenge to all of us to strive unceasingly and prayerfully to improve the situation.

Father Serge

Yes, I would have to agree with the above statement. This thread is terribly off topic. Most of the posts as of late have nothing to do with the initial post or the subject of the thread. The area that it has ventured into does not belong in this section at all. I am warning posters to stay on topic in this section or the thread will have to be closed off.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

At St Anne's in Harrisburg, which as EO I attended sometimes, I found that it was more "Orthodox" than some Orthodox parishes I've been in...at least when Fr Michael served. He seemed to have an orthodox heart...a rarity found today...and now he is over there. May God grant His mercy to his soul. In my opinion, "Fr Michael..of Blessed Memory". Mike Ross

Michael Cerularius asks what's happening at St Ann, Harrisburg, since the death of Fr. Shear.

No new Priest yet. We pray for a good one, and that we be protected from the bad ones.

The "Priest in Residence" has imposed the Pataki Liturgy lock, stock and barrel. Father Shear, God bless him, just thumbed his nose at the Pataki shenannigans and served the Divine Liturgy as he knew it should be done.

I wonder how many like Father Shear are left in the Archeparchy?

Etnick,

Tell us more about your chrismation.

Our Ruthenian BCC people who are leaving because of all the degregations (Pataki, revision of Liturgy, etc) generally only have to recite the Creed before the Orthodox Priest. No new chrismation, not even confession.

What Orthodox group made you receive new chrismation?

Michael Cerularius asks,

"I wonder how many like Father Shear are left in the Archeparchy?"

Not many, Michael, I fear. I have yet to talk with one Priest of the Passaic Eparchy who has any respect for Pataki, but they do as he says because they know there will be reprisals, recriminations and wreckage of careers and retirements if they don't. Same dictatorial scheme as the Romanskyjs use...

With that, you can figure out why we have no vocations to the Priesthood is Passaic.

I recited the creed, but Chrismation is mandatory (at least in the OCA, which I joined.) The ceremony involved the creed, chrismation, tonsuring, and being churched, at the end. The last official step, of course was receiving communion the next day.

I forgot to add that the very first step was confession...