www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Is Aliquippa the Model For Implementing the New Liturgy?

I am traveling to visit a friend in the Pittsburgh area in the coming weeks and when I will be there for the weekend I wanted to check out St. George in Aliquippa. I phoned another friend that I know who attends there and let them know that I would be coming out. I was really interested in attending Divine Liturgy there because as I heard and read here that it is somewhat of an oasis of Tradition when compared to other Greek Catholic churches in the region. For example (and keep in mind I have yet to attend so I am going on what I've been told) a full liturgy (with three verse antiphons) the podaj Hospodi, full processions, little litanies, no pre-cut particles, etc. Well, I was disappointed to learn that the above list is no longer what occurs there.

Let me explain what I've learned. It seems that the previous pastor ( or administrator), Fr. Elias, went back to Europe and was replaced by a new priest. In the month (or so) that the new priest has been there, the full processions are gone, little litanies gone, pre-cut particles now, 'sand boxes' gone (you know the candle stands with sand that we are to place candles in that are supposed to be in the front of our churches but seem to only exist in Orthodox churches).

Now let me repeat, I've not seen this first-hand, but rather the info was passed onto me.

So first and foremost: can anyone from St. George verify this info as to if it is all correct, partially correct, or if there is even more that has been changed.

Secondly, is this the method that will be implemented on the more Traditional churches when the New Liturgy is released?

Third, if this is true, where is the pastoral sensitivity that all of the revisionists cry about whenever returning to our Orthodox roots is presented here. This seems to be anything but pastoral sensitivity.

Before I comment too much more I would like verification if possible from those who attend St. George or those who are familiar with the situation.

I hope that what I heard is not so, but as of now I have to take it at face value.

Waiting for comments,

mc

I have a very similar story about a parish in Campbell, Ohio where the slightest "infraction" was the singing of a Roman Catholic Hymn at the end of Liturgy instead of "God Grant You Many Years." It didn't even "feel" like I had been in a Byzantine Church!

If what you say is true MC, shame, shame on the Archbishop for not being the "heavy" with this priest. Where is the pastoral sensitivity???

I hope someone from St. George's Parish tells us this is all untrue.

Again, if so, shame, shame, shame.

JMHO,
Cathy

Cathy,

my main concern here is that a church that I always thought was at least on the path to restoration and had taken many steps towards restoration is going the other direction. Pastoral sensitivity or not, this is like you said a shame. But we who follow Tradition and heed the words of +JPII and Pope Benedict are constantly told, whoa, slow down, pastoral sensitivity, and that doesn't seem by all accounts to be happening here.

While we're on this, I wonder if any dramatic changes in Liturgical practice have taken place at St. Ann's in Harrisburg, PA since Father Michael's repose (Eternal Memory!). I certainly hope not, but any update would be appreciated.

mc

Let me ask a question, as I know that the Catholic Church is a bit different administrativly than the Orthodox Church. Does your bishop visit your parishes several times a year, with Hierarchal Divine Liturgy being served, normally followed by a dinner? Is there a open dialouge after dinner with the bishop fielding questions from the laity? Would this not be a good time for those in each of the BCC's parishes who are commited to preserving that which has been handed down to them to ask the bishops, point blank, and in front of everybody, just why these things are occuring? Maybe if the bishops see that people really do care, they will start listening to the wishes of the people as opposed to listening to the "tsilyati", the "Bishop's baby chicks", those clerics who tag along on a bishops coattails, jockying for position, who tell the bishop what they think he wants to hear instead of the truth.

Just a thought.

Alexandr

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...obviously I could go on and on! NO, they do not do that. In fact, one current Bishop was very proud of the fact that no member of the laity ever stepped foot in his office while he was Bishop of a particular Eparchy.

That should tell you what they think of us. We're just considered to be a bunch of dumb rubes in the pews who couldn't possibly know anything about our beloved Byzantine Divine Liturgy.

Again, shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.

BTW, did I tell you that the parish I visited in Cambpell, Ohio had a woman walking around the altar, and she was semi-vested and received communion with the Altar Servers???

More to come......

Cathy

I am extremely disheartened to see such an attack against one of the priests without anyone who has posted experiencing the liturgy there for themselves. I too have friends in the parish and have been told that the new pastor has continued the practices of Fr. Elias during the liturgy. The full processions, litanies and "sandboxes" have all remained intact. The fact that this good priest's reputation is being blemished by such shameful gossip is part of the reason why there are so few men who want to go into the priesthood.

There will undoubtedly be some things that will be done differently from Fr. Elias because no one is or should be a clone of another. Each priest needs to be able to make the place he serves his own, within reason. It seems that people on here are often quick to judge without knowing the facts.

The priests in the parishes are often subjected to a great deal of unfair criticism and gossip in their parishes. They shouldn't have to be burdened with more from people who don't even know them or have never experienced for themselves the things about which they are complaining.

MJ,

No one has attacked anyone...MC was asking a question to verify what was told to him. If you look at MC's other posts, his concern is with preserving tradition. If you can verify that these things are untrue, then please do so. I assure you that anyone concerned with preserving tradition will then sleep much better tonight.

With regard to what I have posted, I experienced these things with my own eyes. Yes, I know it's hard to believe...but true!

Cathy

Cathy,

I'm certainly one to appreciate and wholeheartedly support beautiful and traditional liturgy. One has to be careful, however, when speaking of tradition or traditional because it is always subject to an individual's interpretation and to time and circumstance. I'm sure that some who have attended the Campbell church their entire life truly believe that their experience of liturgy is traditional. I am certainly not saying it is or should be thought of as such. I'm simply saying we have to cut people a little slack.

There have been numerous attacks on Fr. Petras that have been uncharitable and unwarranted and I didn't want to see this starting on another priest. Not agreeing with someone does not give us the right to behave uncharitably.

Finally, regardless of whether or not there are full processions, little litanies or sand, I'm sure that I'll manage to sleep just fine, and I hope that no one else loses sleep over it either.

Based upon this statement I'm going to hedge a guess that you reside east of Cleveland. It appears that once you cross into Warren, liturgically things are very different. We've cut so much slack, for so long, the Ruthenian Byzantine Church is going to end-up hanging itself.

If I were picking just to pick, that would be one thing, but I'm not. There were so many "things" that were incorrect liturgically, it was sad. Sad that they haven't been able to celebrate what is rightfully theirs. Sad that their priest is too busy to educate and teach them what is rightfully theirs. Sad that they continue to tolerate Latinizations that JPII instructed we abandon. Sad that their Liturgy is so chopped-up and mangled that visitors left frustrated. Sad that they recite the Creed instead of sing the Creed because .... ? (I can't even come up with an appropriate answer for that one).

That's the problem right now, too many flavors in the Byzantine Church. Go back to a corrected version of the 1964/65 Liturgikon like Fr. Elias did, and see what happens to your churches. We need to tell our own parishioners who we are, like the parishioners in Aliquippa experienced.

I can tell you one thing, if I'm out of town and east of Cleveland, I won't be going to a Byzantine Church. I'll beat feet to the nearest Orthodox Church.

I'm not going to hijack MC's thread...if there's anyone out there who knows what's happening at St. George's Parish, please offer some insight.

Cathy

I really have no regrets about leaving the BCC. This thread was the icing on the cake. I'm being chrismated ORTHODOX today, and I'll say a prayer for the survival of the Greek Catholic church.

If it dies,you know where to find me!!

What happened to Father Elias?

I believe that the new pastor at St. George -- Father Kevin Marks-- is also pastor of St. Mary in Ambridge -- http://www.archeparchy.org/page/directories/parishes/ambridge.htm . Looks like they don't even have an iconostasis at that parish , so Father Kevin has his work cut-out for him there.

Wasn�t Father Kevin chaplain for the sisters in Uniontown?

Why not e-mail Father Kevin and get the scoop?

That information sheet on the Ambridge parish states that an icon-screen was installed in the late nineteen-nineties. So unless it has since been removed, the parish apparently has one.

Fr. Serge

Father Serge bless!

Ah, you're right. The photo must be old.

Dear John,

The Blessing of the Lord!

Father Serge

and later

MJ,

Can you provide specific examples of what you consider to be attacks? When I read Michael�s opening post to this thread I saw questions. He was planning to visit this parish and heard that there were changes. Then he asked if this was true and what was the relationship to the Revised Liturgy. I don�t see an attack here. Can you really condemn Michael for reporting what friends have told him when you also are reporting only what friends have told you?

If you really see an attack on the Forum I invite you to use the �Report a Post� feature to bring it to the attention of the moderator. Quote what you consider to be an attack (or in some way uncharitable) in that report and explain why. If the moderators agree with you the post will be edited or deleted as quickly as is possible.

You also accused others of attacks on Father Petras on this Forum. I am unaware of any such posts. Can you please report them immediately? My expectation, however, is that you won�t find any because you are equating principled disagreement with personal attack. I must ask you to be very careful with your use of the work �attack� since it is not right to accuse others falsely.

Admin

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Regarding the parish in question I am a bit familiar with it. I have not visited since the new pastor has come but I do know that he has been well received and that the people like him. I also understand that he has chopped several of the litanies from the Divine Liturgy. I do not put this down to an implementation of the Revised Liturgy but more so to the fact that this good priest may never have experienced a full Divine Liturgy (it is never done at the seminary). I also understand that he has responsibility for two parishes.

Admin