www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy The rest of the story

Fr. Serge,

I am not sure that either of those labels apply, although I can understand why the Bishop would say that, I think in truth they defy description. Their uses certainly must appear unique to others whether it be those used to typical Greek Catholic or Russian Orthodox usgaes. Bishop Seraphim of Ottawa seems to spend a lot of time there and that is sufficient endorsement for me.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Amazing. Helen, this has been an eye-opener for me. Thank you for this post. And if this true, this is so very sad and pathetic.

-- John

Agreed!

Helen, 'your priest' certainly had a lot to say to you.

IMHO if Ukrainians are not welcomed, Orthodox are not welcomed, we 'frown upon' Roman Catholics who have joined our church, we don't want Eastern European priests because they just want a ticket to America etc., and Converts from Protestantism will never be 'one of us'then what really is the point of calling the Ruthenian BC church a church at all?

If we are not welcoming to any and all who wish to worship then we then we are nothing more than an exclusive ethnic club with a president who calls himself bishop. This may very well explain the current empty clubhouses. Lets hang on to our 60 year old grudges and paranoia for another generation or so. I'm sure its what the Gospel of Christ teaches.

Sam

"He wanted to make sure that we had as little in common with them as possible, so that none of "them" would be able to pray or sing in our Catholic Churches, and none of "our people" would be able to pray or sing in their Orthodox Churches.

But the most important thing he wants is to make our books so 'non-Orthodox' that no Orthodox Church would even ever want to use them. And if our people get used to a more Catholic Liturgy they'd be lost if they visit an Orthodox Church, and they won't be able to pray or feel comfortable there."

The problem with this theory is our music is already different from everybody else, Catholic and Orthodox, except for ACROD. The new music as testified, by Job who has joined ACROD, confirms the new music is closer to both the original Slavonic and ACROD's version.

Our current translations and ACROD's already differ, but not so drastically that it would inhibit someone from particiapating at the others Liturgy.

ACROD is the only Orthodox jurisdiction that uses our books or would think of using them. Greeks and Antiochians use the Greek Rescension OCA uses the Nikonian Recension.

This dog just doesn't hunt.

Fr. Deacon Lance

So different "music" is enough reason to be a different Rite? ...a different Church?

That strikes me as a dangerous idea, but just the sort of idea that has already brought about different juristictions in the USA, Ruthenian & Ukrainian. When will that kind of parochial thinking end?

It is the books (not the music) that matter. I like good Ruthenian singing, good Russian music, good Greek singing, and I can pray with any of that, as long as the text is correct.

There is no music in the official books of the Ruthenian Recension, and we share them with other people who sing differently. (At least we used to, until the Revisionists have their way.)

What a disaster. I keep praying the bishops come to their senses before they take us down this road to a cemetery where "sui juris" churches are buried.

Nick

The problem with this theory is our music is already different from everybody else, Catholic and Orthodox, except for ACROD. The new music as testified, by Job who has joined ACROD, confirms the new music is closer to both the original Slavonic and ACROD's version.

Our current translations and ACROD's already differ, but not so drastically that it would inhibit someone from particiapating at the others Liturgy.

ACROD is the only Orthodox jurisdiction that uses our books or would think of using them. Greeks and Antiochians use the Greek Rescension OCA uses the Nikonian Recension.

I think I'm aghast!!!

So the music has *already* been changed to make us so different that nobody else but ACROD would ever consider (what? Using our books? Attending our liturgies?)and differentiate ourselves? Is this what I am to understand? And this is *already* the fait accompli? And because of *this* the rest of the liturgy has to be transformed (amended?) to conform to a deed already done?

That makes it seem we are at the end point of some insiders' conspiracy instead of at the initial stages of "reforming" ("re-forming?) the Liturgy....to what end?

I don't think I've been so shocked by anything posted here in years.

Staro

The Byzantine Catholics were also approached by the Ukrainians, the OCA, and other Orthdodox juristictions (not just ACROD).

One option, is to put your head in the sand, and build walls around the parish to keep "them" and other undesirables out.

Some people think that way, but there is no future in it.

Bishop Nicholas Samra was a prophet, and he urged us to put our little differences aside, and work together, cooperate, plan for the future in America. Otherwise we will be buried with our ethnicity, little customs and distinctiveness intact.

The Ruthenian Recension unites us to so many other Churches now. But it is a fragile link, when it is not valued or appreciated. When we separate ourselves from it, we will canonize parochialism, and condemn ourselves to the scrap heap of Churches that just didn't get it.

Nick

Deacon Lance is one of the few clergymen who seem to be pushing for this disaster. I don't really understand his point (if I did I think I would be as shocked as you are).

He has already said that he doesn't really agree with the Revision, but he is defending it anyway. That does make his support for the Revision a little weak.

Nick

"So the music has *already* been changed"

No, Prostopinje is different from Samoilka, Obikhod, Romanian, Greek, and all the other chants styles that exist in the Byzantine Christian world. Prostopinje is used by Rusyn, Slovak and Hungarian Greek Catholics and ACROD. Samoilka is used by Ukrainians, Obikhod by Russian, etc.

Fr. Deacon Lance

"Deacon Lance is one of the few clergymen who seem to be pushing for this disaster. I don't really understand his point (if I did I think I would be as shocked as you are).

He has already said that he doesn't really agree with the Revision, but he is defending it anyway. That does make his support for the Revision a little weak."

I am certainly not pushing for the Revision. I simply do not belive it to be the end of the world scenario many here present it to be.

But to go on record:

I dislike inclusive language and aside from updating brethren with brothers and sisters disagree with implementing it.

The other transaltion issues almost need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. Some changes seem to be just changes neither better or worse, and so the current text should be left. Some are corrections that should be made.

The new music is a pastoral issue. It is truer to the original but that is hardly the most important consideration. There are parishes that still sing everything in Tone 4. Some parishes don't have trained cantors. Use what will enbale the people to sing, it may be the old it may be the new.

Rubrics. I am in favor of the Anaphora aloud but that is the only change I feel strongly about.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Bless you, Father Deacon Lance! There are some folks posting here who think prostopinije is some novel kind of chant when in fact it has been around for hundreds of years. Only relatively recently has it been written down. The earlier renditions used other alphabets and church slavonic texts. In the twentieth century it began to be written down using the vernacular. The chant came from eastern Europe as an oral tradition mainly, which caused each parish to have slight variations in the chants they sang. Once written down, the prostopinije began to be more systematically learned and passed on.

Even though some jurisdictions try to be multi-ethnic, what often happens is that the majority ethnic chant form prevails. The majority usually sees no problem with this. I for one am not interested in a larger common music practice at the expense of Carpatho-Rusyn prostopinije within the BCC. What would Pope John Paul II have thought of such a thing, in light of his encyclicals encouraging the eastern churches to be faithful to their traditions?

Glad to hear it!

And I sincerely apologize for misrepresenting you.

Nick

There is a big difference between traditions and Tradition. Painted easter eggs are a tradition, a nice tradition, but not Tradition.

The Liturgy, the sacraments, the Faith, falls well within Tradition, and I think JPII was thinking about such things.

Styles of chant are closer to the first than the second.

If I move somewhere where there is no Byzantine Catholic Church (singing "our" chant), do I join a Roman Church, or another Byzantine Catholic Church (where they sing different)?

So many people who thought our Church was all about colored eggs and styles of singing left for the Roman Church or Protestant Churches when they moved away from Mom and Dad.

We need to be Eastern Catholics, and keep this great Tradition. Other 'traditions' are nice too, but not if they mean we can't cooperate, can't work together, can't pray together with other Eastern Catholics.

Nick

Other 'traditions' are nice too, but not if they mean we can't cooperate, can't work together, can't pray together with other Eastern Catholics.

I am not sure what to make of the above. Nowhere does it say that Ruthenians have to give up their small t traditions for the sake of being able to worship with other eastern catholics. Prostopinije may be a small t tradition, but there is no reason to suppose it has to be done away with in order to be able to worship with other traditions.

They don't have to "give up" their chant.

But why hold onto the chant tradition to the death, but at the same time give up the Ruthenian Recension? It just doesn't make sense. Somehow something doesn't add up.

Look at it this way. If you move to Utah, and there is no Ruthenian Church, but there is a R.C. Church, Protestant Churches, and a Ukrainian Church, where do you go?

Why did you pick that place? It should tell you what is most important.

Nick