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A side issue is that of 4-part harmony choirs versus unison congregational singing from a kliros. When it comes to a lot of material from outside the BCC, cantors for the latter have less to draw on. Most of St. Vladimir's stuff is for choir.
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Originally posted by Jim:
A side issue is that of 4-part harmony choirs versus unison congregational singing from a kliros. When it comes to a lot of material from outside the BCC, cantors for the latter have less to draw on. Most of St. Vladimir's stuff is for choir. One of the things I miss are the natural harmonies sung by the older Slavic congregations. Introducing the English effectively squashed that in some places. Odd how that happened but if you happen to catch the rare Slavonic liturgy or if the priest takes some of the prayers in Slavonic, or the cantor starts, then the harmonies come right back. Eli
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It is often overlooked, but the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia in the USA has a strong tradition of harmonized choral liturgical music - just a few days ago was the first anniversary Liturgy for the repose of Daniel Kavka, who for many years directed one of the finest church choirs on the East Coast. Choral music is not at all foreign to this tradition.
Back in the Old Country, I attended a lovely choir festival in the nineties - and the choir of the Greek-Catholic Cathedral in Uzhhorod walked off with the first prize (and richly deserved that prize, may I say at once).
Fr. Serge
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Originally posted by harmon3110: Originally posted by Helen:
[b] My priest said that there is still a bishop in our Church who hates the idea that we share a tradition with the Ukrainians or the Orthodox, and he is using this New Liturgy to make sure that isn't true, and to make sure it never happens. The New Liturgy is going to be marketed as inclusive and up to date, but the real but unspoken agenda, is to make sure that Ukrianians and Orthodox are not welcome in our Churches and vice versa.
If this is true, it might explain why people are arguing so much about Greek words. It's not really about the words at all, it's about our future, and the future of Byzantine Catholics in America.
Isn't it time we grew up, and got over all those old fights? If that is really what this is all about, I think it is pretty sad.
Helen
-- John [/b]I've been reflecting on this since I wrote the above response to Helen's post; and I have been growing uneasy in my conscience. What if it's not true ? I'm not implying that Helen or her source lied, but what if the information was just wrong ? And, if it is true, what good are we doing about it ? Either way, I think we ought to be praying for our bishops. And, before posting more negative items about them, I think we should give our bishops the benefit of the doubt. -- John
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I didn't suggest that there was any necessity, or even reason, to flood the parishioners anywhere with a lot of new material, especially not all at once. Pick a simple piece, find three or four who don't mind learning it, and then practice it with the congregation. If you've picked the right piece, it will work (for a sample, try the Byzantine [Greek] tone for the Third Stasis of the Lamentations at Orthros of Holy Saturday (usually done Good Friday night). It's a guaranteed winner.
As with many things, patience and a peaceful, non-coercive approach can often work wonders. For that matter, incidentally, the same approach is good for reviving something that actually is prostopinije but has passed out of use in a given parish (or maybe was never used there to begin with).
Fr. Serge
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Originally posted by Serge Keleher:
It is often overlooked, but the Byzantine-Ruthenian Metropolia in the USA has a strong tradition of harmonized choral liturgical music - just a few days ago was the first anniversary Liturgy for the repose of Daniel Kavka, who for many years directed one of the finest church choirs on the East Coast. Choral music is not at all foreign to this tradition.
Back in the Old Country, I attended a lovely choir festival in the nineties - and the choir of the Greek-Catholic Cathedral in Uzhhorod walked off with the first prize (and richly deserved that prize, may I say at once).
Fr. Serge It's funny but I never hear this mentioned by our current "schooled" cantors. I asked a friend once to ask if they ever heard of Doc Pauly and I got resounding silence. I am spelling by sound not sight but even still how hard can it be? Eli
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Pauley. Wilkes-Barre. St. Mary's. Studied under Bortnyansky's kid. Great Cantor. He and Danny Kavka were the best we had after Roman died.
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Originally posted by harmon3110: Originally posted by harmon3110: [b] Originally posted by Helen:
[b] My priest said that there is still a bishop in our Church who hates the idea that we share a tradition with the Ukrainians or the Orthodox, and he is using this New Liturgy to make sure that isn't true, and to make sure it never happens. The New Liturgy is going to be marketed as inclusive and up to date, but the real but unspoken agenda, is to make sure that Ukrianians and Orthodox are not welcome in our Churches and vice versa.
If this is true, it might explain why people are arguing so much about Greek words. It's not really about the words at all, it's about our future, and the future of Byzantine Catholics in America.
Isn't it time we grew up, and got over all those old fights? If that is really what this is all about, I think it is pretty sad.
Helen Amazing. Helen, this has been an eye-opener for me. Thank you for this post. And if this true, this is so very sad and pathetic. -- John [/b]
-- John [/b]There was a great deal of ink spilled here recently over whether or not the Novus Ordo was going to be an imepediment to renewed communion with Orthodoxy. Nearly all comers said there would be some negative impact as things stand. So now it is too far fetched to say the same about an Inclusive Language liturgy in an eastern Catholic Church? You generally offer a benefit of doubt where there is one. This liturgy has taken years and years to bring to its present state. It is no accident that it was tested in Passaic and it is no accident period. It is quite a calculated piece of unnecessary word-work, for even Father David suggests that it will not last as is. Stunning. Eli
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Originally posted by Starokatolyk:
Pauley. Wilkes-Barre. St. Mary's. Studied under Bortnyansky's kid. Great Cantor. He and Danny Kavka were the best we had after Roman died. So how is it that their legacy apparently has hit a stone wall? They might as well not have existed. We needed to import someone to teach us how to be Ruthenian? Eli
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