www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy All is Quiet on the Eastern Front...

Might it not be more effective to ask the original poster to prove their claim when an objection is made?

In fact, men ought to remember that it may be uncharitable not to disagree if it involves the truth.

Charity without truth is mere sentimentality.

Misology (the hatred of argument) is lauded as a virtue in our age. And yet real dialogue, for the sake of truth, is scorned upon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Cathy posted:
"Is it my imagination that the only word changes have been to add inclusive language, that things which should have been corrected have not, because as one bishop put it, "We would not be Byzantine if we didn't say forever and ever." Forget what is correct, now take feelings into account. "

I reply:

Yes, Cathy, that is obviously your imagination.

Changes like "Theotokos" for "Mother of God," "essence" for "substance," the elimination of the Filoque from the Creed,
-those are three changes that have nothing whatsoever to do with inclusive language.

There are NO uses of vertical inclusive language in the IELC translation of the Divine Liturgies.
There are three words or phrases that reflect horizontal inclusive language: (1) the elimination of the word 'men' in the phrase "for us and for our salvation, he was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man;" (2) the change of the introduction to the Apostolic Reading to be "Brothers and Sisters" instead of "Brethren;" and the universal decision to translate Philanthropos/Cholovikoljubets as "the Lover of us all."

This does not provide an exhaustive list of textual changes in the translation of the Divine Liturgy or of the propers which accompany it. Nonetheless, it is important that some sense of balance be kept in this.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Thank you Professor Thompson for clarifying a small detail to what has become a confusing time in our church history. Do you know if the progulmated version (when it does occur) will be made available before books are published?

Also, how will the people learn the music? Are all the cantors being trained, and will they be ready to go when the books arrive?

Thank you in advance,
SK

Clarification:

It wasn't a universal decision to replace philanthropos with "lover of us all," but a decision by a very few people to replace philanthropos universally throughout the liturgy with "lover of us all," which is a big part of the problem with the reception of the new liturgy. The next person I meet who is offended by "lover of mankind" will be the first.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Pseudo-Athanasius:

The word "universal" in my post referred to the universal replacement in the translation of the Divine Liturgy for that specific text, not to the approbatiopn of the universe ABOUT the translation. <G> No such claim was being made, I assure you.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Dear Professor,

I'm sorry. I should have put a :-) in my post. I knew perfectly well what you meant, but was taking the opportunity to make a point.

:-)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Stephanie Kotyuha posted:

"Do you know if the progulmated version (when it does occur) will be made available before books are published?

Also, how will the people learn the music? Are all the cantors being trained, and will they be ready to go when the books arrive?"

My response to point one:

It is my understanding that the promulgation and the appearance of the books (both the Altar Liturgikon AND the Faithful's Book) will happen simultaneously. However, I am not a hierarch and do not have a letter from the Hierarchs confirming that.

My response to point two:

I assume (and that again is dangerous) that each individual Arch/Eparchy will set up workshops at the syncellate level, with follow-up workshops in parishes. Part of the "introductory materials" will include a set of compact discs recording a great deal of the music in the Faithful's Book, as well as a "Cantor's Companion" notebook which will give suggestions from the Inter-Eparchial Music Commission on some ways to introduce the materials contained in the Faithful's Book.

More specific information should be obtained from the Syncellate for Worship in each individual Arch/Eparchy as it becomes available.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA

Mr. Thompson is correct. Anyone who wishes to see the text (at least as it was in October 2004) can order Father Serge Keleher�s excellent book "Studies on the Byzantine Liturgy - 1" and see for themselves.

I will also confirm that in the texts I have seen there are no uses of vertical inclusive language. My objections (and that of others) have been to a type of horizontal inclusive language that the Vatican banned for use in the Latin Church (like replacing the inclusive �for us men and our salvation� with the exclusive �for us and our salvation� and replacing the inclusive �loves mankind� with the exclusive �loves us all�.)

I know many people have worked hard on the Revised Liturgy but I and many others know it contains a number of inaccuracies in translation and rubrics. For that reason we hope that it is never promulgated and that instead the Council of Hierarchs decides to reprint the existing 1964 Liturgicon with corrections and then begin working with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension (Catholic and Orthodox) to produce the common translations called for by the official Liturgical Instruction.

Admin / John

Now that sounds like a compromise with the whole church in mind! Bravo, Administrator!

JMHO, Cathy

Quote
"I know many people have worked hard on the Revised Liturgy but I and many others know it contains a number of inaccuracies in translation and rubrics. For that reason we hope that it is never promulgated and that instead the Council of Hierarchs decides to reprint the existing 1964 Liturgicon with corrections and then begin working with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension (Catholic and Orthodox) to produce the common translations called for by the official Liturgical Instruction"


This is the most sensible statement I've heard on the whole subject of the revised Liturgy. All we need are the Antiphons, The Grant it, O Lords, Unto ages of ages, orthodox christians, no kneeling, a curtain behind the Royal Doors, A trojca, STANDING! for the entire Liturgy, MORE SLAVONIC,(Why am I having flashbacks of Uniontown?), the sanctus bells, (no, forget that one), Whoops!! I digress. Thats PRAVOSLAVNY!!Well one can dream.....

Ok, we'll see who REALLY knows po'nashemu! How about returning the use of the grzechotki! I have never seen one in this country!

Alexandr

But what will happen in the numerous parishes of the Ruthenian Archeparchy that don't have cantors?

Ungcsertezs

we hope that it is never promulgated and that instead the Council of Hierarchs decides to reprint the existing 1964 Liturgicon with corrections and then begin working with the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension (Catholic and Orthodox) to produce the common translations called for by the official Liturgical Instruction.

If what has been passed along for months here is accurate, it is way too late for all the above to occur as written by our administrator. However, maybe there will be an eventual attempt to produce the common translation the administrator speaks of even after promulgation of the revised liturgy. Tomorrow is another day.

Dear Jim,

It is never too late to do the right thing. There is no such thing as momentum in human action. We can step back, stop, refrain from acting.