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Actually, yes. There is a shrine dedicated to Our Lady of Guadalupe and there, you can find not only a statue, but actually the only relic from the original cloth outside the Basilica in Mexico City.

That, of course, not to mention the monumental image of Our Lady of Guadalupe that you just cannot miss if you're driving on the 101 Freeway.

And, by the way, I find the Cathedral quite adequate, and its occasional use as a hall for significant events not directly linked with Catholic worship entirely acceptable.

I agree that the Church of Los Angeles is not perfect, but I'd like to see any of you doing better than Cardinal Mahony.

Shalom,
Memo

My opinion of Cardinal Mahony is about
the same as Mother Angelica's.........

antonius

Well, I would stand corrected, thanks. (Still, imho, the structure is very bland and even boring)

If it were a gay-Catholic student protesting at the Cathedral, and arrested for such behavior, very few of the people complaining now would complain but applaud the action. The problem is that it is not a proper forum to protest at the Cathedral in such a manner, especially for someone who claims to be a good and faithful Catholic. Those who go and seek their own agenda, and neglect that it is an Apostolic Seat of a Prince of the Church, and do not show the proper conduct for such a Seat, and who will not leave without undue aggrevation, certainly they should be -- and are -- removed from the premises.

One can disagree with a stand, but there is a method by which one is to do it. You do not make yourself into a martyr, because if you do, then you are not a martyr (witness) for Christ, but only for yourself and your own ego. I find it outrageous indeed someone thinks that the proper way to initiate dialogue is to scream at the Cardinal-Archbishop. More importantly, it seems that the method of criticism used (he meets with, and even rewards, those whom the Church does not agree with -- just remember who and what Jesus did with those the Jews find disfavorable -- he met with them, and even highlighted their good qualities -- the good Samaritan is a prime example of this).

Mother Angelica criticized the Cardinal-Archbishop, and got reprimanded for her criticism. Indeed, what she criticized as being heretical was far from heretical: she claimed quotes from Trent were heresy! She thinks of herself as a Prince of the Church, when instead she is meant to be -- called to be - a humble servant. Compare her to St Francis of Assisi, and you can see the difference. St Francis would even look for the priests of disrepute and venerate them -- all because of their orders. He would say all should respect them as such. Many mocked him for it. Sad that many within the order forget this example . . .

As for the meeting, it is indeed proper and good for the Church to engage in interfaith dialogue. Pope John Paul II engaged it, even so far as using Assisi as a place to promote mutual respect among religions and trying to promote peace instead of hostility towards each other (again, in the spirit of St Francis!) Our present Pope also finds interfaith dialogue as one of the most important places for the Church and her witness to the world.

Indeed, he says, "In a world that is drawing ever closer together, the question about the meeting of religions and cultures has become a most important subject, and one that is certainly not just the business of theology." (Truth and Tolerance, 9). This is done, among other ways, in peaceful interfaith dialogue. This is not to say the different religions come to agree in one "universal faith." That is not the purpose of such dialogue. It is however to get to know the other, to appreciate them, and to overcome hostile, one-sided, biased characterizations which are as false as Jack Chick tracts are about Catholicism. We need to open ourselves to know the other, just as Jesus showed the Jews in his time in the way he dealt with -- and praised-- the "arch heretics" of his day, the Samaritans, let along the pagans like the Centurion who had "more faith" than anyone else he met.

Do not be afraid of dialogue, and do not go out to cause disharmony for your own personal, egoistical agenda, setting yourself up to be a martyr, when all you are doing is not for the sake of the Church or its peace.

Henry,

We all have agendas, but are they based on good or evil, on the Word of God or man ? Is the intent to inform or hurt ?

james

Yes, there are actually several of them. One of the most beautiful is the statue of the Madonna and Child which stood on the altar of the old Cathedral (St. Vibiana's) and now has its own little chapel. There's also a shrine to Our Lady of Guadalupe outside the main entrance. And several others around the perimeter.

I think there is supposed to be a difference between a HALL and a CATHEDRAL. But we post-modernists have forgotten the difference.

The Cathedral historically is the seat of the bishop. It is supposed to be a religious place that is set apart for heavenly worship and religious instruction (homilies).

True heavenly worship takes place during the Divine Liturgy.

Having an "interfaith" gathering to honor a pro-abortionist cafeteria catholic is not true worship and definitely does not belong in a CATHEDRAL. Do you see the inappropriateness of this interfaith political scene being played out in a consecrated Cathedral?

If the new Cathedral complex has a hall, why aren't they using the Hall for such political activities?

Maybe Hagia Sophia should never have been used as a place for political and interfaith meetings as well. I mean, having the representatives of the blood-thirsty, tyrannical viking warlord (and pagan!) Vladimir over, and showing them respect despite their anti-life affirming ways, was a big mistake. Wasn't it?

Dear Henry,

Which tyrannical warlord Vladimir was that?

Do you mean the one that became St Volodymyr the Great, Enlightener of Rus'?

Alex

Alex,

You got it right in one. St Vladimir, however, at the time of the "political meeting" being undertaken in Hagia Sophia (they even got out the organs if I remember correctly!) was just known as a cruel, kin-slaying Viking warlod who even threatened Constantinople with a sacking more than once in his life.

By showing respect and honoring others in our churches, even in our Cathedrals (with so much historical precedent), history has shown it has had more than a positive effect, but has created Saints.

Jesus walked with sinners. He talked with them. Dinned with them (indeed, it was more than a bit controversial when he went to the home of a tax collector -- what, show respect to a filthy sinner like that?!?!?!?) Shall we deny these sinners access to Jesus today, and even to the hospitality which he showed while he was giving his earthly ministry? Is not the Church the Body of Christ, and therefore Christ's arm to the world? Showing respect and honor, even to sinners, was Jesus' way. If he could find his way to the homes of sinners, and even have as a parable that of a feast where the sinners, the outcasts, were called to dine in the home of a great benefactor -- shall we not continue and try as we might and have a positive influence?

I just pointed out to St Vladimir as an example. Don't judge too quickly. The Lord works in mysterious ways. Even in politics.

That was inquirers visiting, not having pagans over and doing their ceremonies in a Church consecrated to Christ! Big Difference!

In Christ,
Deacon Nikolai

Dear Henry,

Actually, I was trying not to judge quickly at all.

That's why I asked for further information from you.

Thanks,

Alex

Father Deacon,

You think they did not do any of their own prayers while in Hagia Sophia? I would be more than willing to suspect, like a student taking a test, they did more than one small prayer in their whole visit. They were religious, even if inquiring. More importantly you have pointed out they were pagans and yet inquirers. Despite being pagan they were welcome into the church, and were able to experience the prayers of the church (do you think they prayed along? What about the canons, oh my!?!? I am sure that caused many monks grief!)

I only brought up one example of many. Do you think interfaith dialogues are not about inquiry? Do you think sinners having Jesus over was about an inquiry to end their sins? The example of Jesus (the Church IS the Body of Christ) should remind us the example by which we should open up to others. Jesus invites us with the parables he used to open up to others. It's why he provided the parable of the Good Samaritan.

If you look at the treaties of Popes to pagan nations, you will note they even allowed pagan oaths to pagan gods to be a part of a signed treaty -- and where do you think such a treat was signed?

We lose sight of who and what the Church is and want to be like the Pharisees. We want to lock Jesus up for ourselves. We want to ignore, despite what Saints from Justin Martyr down to Pavel Florensky or Alexander Mann have pointed to us -- that the religious heritage of non-Christians can indeed be seen, to a degree, even of being Christian (for Socrates) or at least reflective of a true desire and love for God that we must honor it, and indeed, open ourselves while still providing our firm faith in return.

Alex,

I didn't think you were judging, indeed, I thought you understood my point by showing who it was I was talking about. I just continued on my point for the sake of others.

Just re-read the post. It does look like I was saying don't judge too quickly to you. It wasn't meant to you as much as the discussion in the forum as a whole.

Dear Henry,

Your point about the pagans in Haghia Sophia, praying etc., is rather brilliant!

In fact, we know that for the longest time after Christianity was introduced in Rus' - that pagan and Christian beliefs coexisted side by side.

Prince Ihor, the husband of St Olha, was pagan, but he earnestly prayed to the icon of the Mother of God "Pyrohotissa" which is, according to some, what we today refer to as the "Theotokos of Vladimir."

Legal documents in Rus' often invoked BOTH Christian and pagan subjects in the same breath.

We know from Roman times that those folks had no problem placing the Christian God within their pagan pantheon of gods - as did the rather civilized Roman Emperor Alexander Severus with his statue of Christ that stood with those of his gods!

If anything, St Paul did not waste time railing at the pagan gods - at Athens, as we know, he basically told the Greeks that, after having as many gods as they did, they finally "got it right" in the person of the "Unknown God."

Brilliant marketing, er, I mean "Evangelization," don't you think?

I haven't really been following this thread, so I'm only responding to your point above . . .

Alex