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It appears that the new translation of the liturgy could be quite a kick in the teeth to traditionalists. If it comes to fruition I am curious on some of your thoughts. Normally I would say that after two thousand years we should have this stuff settled, but since the so called leaders in our church have to keep on bringing this stuff up we can join their silly parade.
Don't ask me how I know about the changes. If you don't believe me then take the following questions as hypothetical ones.
If the antiphons were only to have one verse
i.e. only
Vosklinite Hospodevi vsja zeml'a,....
Shout joyfully to the Lord all the earth,....
and then right to the Second Antiphon and skipping
Rcyte Bohu: kol' strasna d'ila Tvoja,...
Say to God: How awesome are Your deeds!...
Would churches who took all of the verses of the Anitphons have to now only take one verse?
If they took the other verses would the be in 'error'?
Why take out all of the verses?
Any thoughts?
More questions to follow in the coming days and weeks.
Michael Cerularius
The East will rise again!
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Yes, we "vostochniks" are not in favor of these and other changes that have been made! Christos Voskrese! Voistinnu Voskrese! Ungcsertezs 
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Christ is Risen! At the present moment, without exaggeration there are as many as three hundred English translations of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom on the market. What need is there for another one?
Christ is truly Risen!
Incognitus
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Christ is Risen!
Has the new translation of the Divine Liturgy already been released to the laity? Where is the referenced text?
In Christ,
John
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Originally posted by incognitus:
Christ is Risen! At the present moment, without exaggeration there are as many as three hundred English translations of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom on the market. What need is there for another one?
Christ is truly Risen!
Incognitus Because 300 is such an even number, and 301 would be more Byzantine? Christ is Risen! Photius
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I like the present texts, and I don't really see any need for a new translation.
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Originally posted by John S.:
Christ is Risen!
Has the new translation of the Divine Liturgy already been released to the laity? Where is the referenced text?
In Christ,
John No it has not been released to the laity. I don't have the referenced text to display at the moment, and if you don't want to believe what I have seen with my own two eyes then take the questions as hypotheticals. IMHO, the salient point is that a very non-traditional text is about to be jammed down our throats and it's time to bring up some points about what is about to occur. More to come. Michael Cerularius The East will rise again!
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Some time ago, my brother, Father Deacon Lance posted the text on this forum. This has been discussed many times on this forum. If any one cares to review past discussions, you can certainly do a search.
For the most part the so-called new translation of the Divine Liturgy reflects very few textual changes. As I understand, the textual changes reflect the translation from the Greek where the Slavonic may not reflect the Greek version of the DL. I hardly think it will be faith shattering. If anyone has attended the annual Uniontown pilgrimage of late, then you've pretty much experienced the so-called new translation. Seems someone is trying to stir a tempest in the teplota.
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Michael Cerularius,
you speak of "so-called leaders in our Church". Any text of the Divine Liturgy will be promulgated by the Metropolitan with the Council of Hierarchs. Is there some doubt in your mind that our Hierarchs are in fact the leaders of our Church?
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Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
I hardly think it will be faith shattering. If anyone has attended the annual Uniontown pilgrimage of late, then you've pretty much experienced the so-called new translation. Seems someone is trying to stir a tempest in the teplota. Dear Deacon John, Maybe it won't be faith shattering, but it does hurt. The parish where I grew up, way back in the '70s  always sang the antiphons at the begininng of the Liturgy ("Shout joyfully etc."), all the verses. I loved it then, and I love it now. I went to Uniontown, and I heard the shortcuts there. Maybe it doesn't shatter my faith, but it hurts. Why won't they let me sing my antiphons. That is my job at the Liturgy! I feel disappointed and somehow cheated when the cantor jumps on to the "Glory" and then after one verse of the next antiphon, jumps again to the "O only begotten". I think, maybe the cantor is in a hurry, maybe he has somewhere else to go? Maybe there is a good reason, but I haven't heard it yet. Why have they taken 'my' antiphons? Why are they being shortened? If there is a really good reason, then it would be easier for me to accept it. (...and I am waiting to hear it.). But for now, it seems like the cantor is taking short cuts, and I feel sad, and disappointed. I like the antiphons, I enjoy praying them, I enjoyed singing them, and what's the rush to eliminate them, without any reason being given? It doesn't shatter my faith, but it does shake it a little. I went to Uniontown, and I heard the shortcuts. I used to go every year, but I haven't been the last couple of years. The reason I haven't gone for the last three years, is because they won't let me sing my antiphons. If they don't want me to sing, they don't want me either. It only hurts. Nick
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Dear Michael, Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
Seems someone is trying to stir a tempest in the teplota. Please don't be put off by Deacon John. I am with you. There are those who are trying to convince us that asking questions about the new liturgy, or opposition the revision of the liturgy is inappropriate. Don't believe that, for one moment. Why do they think that revising the liturgy wouldn't cause a tempest?
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Question to the board,
Since it is the Metropolitan who ultimately has to promulgate the new translation, has anyone written him and asked him why the new translation does not keep the entire Rescension? If yes what were his replies?
When will the Metropolitan explain why the entire Rescension is not being published?
Has anyone discussed the ecumenical ramifications of the changes?
What does the Orthodox Church think of the entire Rescension not being published.
Do the Greek Catholics help or hinder unity by publishing this new translation?
Pope Benedict has more than once in the last two weeks spoken about unity with the Orthodox. Is his hope for unity being fostered with this new translation?
Michael Cerularius
The East will rise again!
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For those unaware, the beautiful "The Divine Liturgy - An Anthology for Worship" is "hot" off the press. Published by the Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky Institute of Eastern Christian Studies, Ottowa, Canada - Imprimatur Patriarch Lubomyr Husar. It is currently being introduced to all Ukrainian Catholic parishes throughout the United States and Canada and truly is a masterpiece. Our parish in Scranton, Pennsylvania - St. Vladimir - officially began using it two Sundays ago and we love it. Take a look: http://web.ustpaul.uottawa.ca/Sheptytsky/DLASample1.pdf
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Originally posted by Michael Cerularius:
Question to the board,
Since it is the Metropolitan who ultimately has to promulgate the new translation, has anyone written him and asked him why the new translation does not keep the entire Rescension? If yes what were his replies?
When will the Metropolitan explain why the entire Rescension is not being published?
Has anyone discussed the ecumenical ramifications of the changes?
What does the Orthodox Church think of the entire Rescension not being published.
Do the Greek Catholics help or hinder unity by publishing this new translation?
Pope Benedict has more than once in the last two weeks spoken about unity with the Orthodox. Is his hope for unity being fostered with this new translation?
Michael Cerularius
The East will rise again! Dear Michael, I think you are asking some of the right questions. Maybe the East will rise! Nick
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Christos voskhrese!
As far as the original question about "non-traditional" features goes...
(1) Our present Divine Liturgy book from the Byzantine Seminary Press (1978) has the First and Second Antiphons, as customarily used in the Ruthenian recension. BUT the second and following verses are in smaller type, suggesting they may not be used - as in fact they are omitted (sadly) in quite a number of parishes. (Our prayerbook, the Byzantine Book of Prayer, puts them in brackets. The Carpatho-Russian Orthodox 1988 service book gives only one verse of each psalm, and omits the remainder.)
In our current Divine Liturgy book, one verse EACH of the the typical psalms (102 and 145) is given as an alternative to the Sunday antiphons, but there is no mention at all of the Beatitudes which should accompany them.
For that matter, the existing Divine Liturgy book completely omits BOTH the Little Litanies following the first and second antiphons. Some parishes may be taking them - but are you prepared to indict ALL of our bishops for 30-odd years for omitting these two litanies?
(2) The provisional Divine Liturgy text I have seen in use at the seminary provides the first and second antiphons for Sundays and weekdays, WITH MUSIC. The second and following verses are omitted, but I have been assured that they will be in the cantor's companion volume which is in preparation, which will also included notated psalm verses for Vespers and Matins, the Glory/now and ever in the 8 resurrectional tones etc. - all the texts which are specifically given to the cantor.
(By the way, when psalms are sung responsorially, the older tradition IS for the cantor(s) to sing the verses, and all to sing the response. See Byzantine Daily Worship, for example. In fact, the Ordo Celebrationis, which IS the offical ordo for our recension, says "the chanters sing" the antiphons.)
The rubrics in the provisional text say that the typical psalms AND the Beatitudes may be sung in place of the Sunday antiphons, except on Sundays with proper antiphons. The first verse of each (the ones we traditionally abbreviate to) are given with both simple and solemn melodies. I expect that the remaining verses, and the Beatitudes, will be in the cantor's companion.
There may be reasons to like or dislike a revised translation (and yes, in some cases changes may be made precisely because the text we have diverges from the Greek. See the forum posts on the Septuagint - or should the Slavonic gospel and apostol trump the Greek Scriptural texts as well?) And if something is omitted that you want to continue to have as an option, ask for it (respectfully).
But I don't think leaving the cantor's antiphons out of the people's book is a blow against Tradition. And whether they are right or wrong, our hierarchs do deserve more respect in public than referring to them as "so called leaders".
Yours in the risen Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski
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