www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Question #1 on New Translation of Liturgy

Dear Father David,

Six deacon's litanies are missing, or seriously mangled. That is not my idea of a translation. The liturgy was not only translated, it was edited.

Rubrics which formerly and deliberately said "silently" now say "aloud". That is definitely a change.

It was a minority on Athos that suggested taking the prayers aloud, and it is a minority here, who are advocating a change that the majority of the clergy and people do not want.

But the Archbishop does not need Rome's approval, or the approval of his flock either. He can just do it.

Nick

"It was a minority on Athos that suggested taking the prayers aloud, and it is a minority here, who are advocating a change that the majority of the clergy and people do not want."

Could someone cite when an actual legitimate survey was done of all clergy and people of the Metropolia that shows that it is a "change that the majority of the clergy and the people do not want."

There seem to be a lot of very broad strokes with some very broad brushes used when discussing this topic.

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Metropolitan Basil - Just do it! I've looked and looked and I can't find anywhere where the good Metropolitan has requested and or received the necessary rights and permissions from Nike to use their slogan - hope it doesn't get him in trouble!

Father David, Christ is Risen!

What ?!?!?!? I have before me now, as I type, priests' service books in both Greek and Slavonic, both contemporary editions from reputable sources, published with ecclesiastical blessings from the hierarchy of Orthodox Churches (of Greece and Moscow), which clearly state. "The priest prays silently (mystiko; tajno)" !!! How can you possibly write what you wrote? I'd certainly like an explanation of how you came to state such a blatant, easily disproved falsehood! And, it casts doubt on the truth of any other assertion you have made or will make!

When, may I ask, did we not have the Liturgy in the vernacular (albeit a stylized version of the vernacular)?
One of the fights that caused the Great Schism was over Pope Nicholas I opposing use of the vernacular while St. Photius' contended that "Any language used to preach the Gospel is thereby a holy language", and the latter's blessing of his friend and colleague in the world, St. Cyril, together with the latter's brother, St. Methodius, to commence translation of the Scriptures and divine services into Ancient Slavonic.

That does not follow. I, too, contend that one needs to know the priestly prayers to understand the Liturgy, but I do not advocate saying the prayers aloud; and my opinion is typical of educated Orthodox Christians.

That is possible (although, as I stated above, I feel no reason to believe anything you write), BUT, if true, I strongly suspect this minority was looked askance upon and it would not in the least surprise me if they were expelled from Athos. In my year on Athos, I heard lots of stories about sundry movements, but never heard of these people, which makes me think that they, if they existed, were a fringe, nut case group.

Photius, Reader
(and erstwhile translator)

Was this associated with the Kolyvades movement?

I've been told that St. John of Kronstadt used to say the Anaphora audibly; can anyone confirm or deny this?

Praying the Anaphora (and some other prayers) audibly is common in certain parts of the OCA. I've heard the now-retired Metropolitan Theodosius do this on a number of occasions; Metropolitan Herman, on the other hand, does not do this.

Dave

Reader Photius:

May I suggest (most strongly) that you need to tone down the rhetoric. Your accusations against Fr. David are unseemly. I'm certain that there are ways to disagree without resorting to ad hominems in the process.

Fr. Deacon Edward,
Moderator

Dear Photius,
CHRIST IS RISEN! As to dubious utterances, it is well to trust our brothers - but, as Gorbachov famously put it, it is also well to verify the content! (this is a free translation of three words in Russian).
As to the praying of the Anaphora aloud, which seems to be de rigeur in some circles these days: a bit of moderation might do no harm. Once in a while, by way of exception, such a form of praying the Anaphora can be edifying, especially when the Anaphora is that of Saint Basil the Great (otherwise the pressure is on the bishop or priest to rush through the Anaphora at breakneck speed, whilst the singers are dragging the responses unbearably). However, this truly should be an exception. No less a luminary than Pope Benedict XVI has remarked that almost nobody could reasonably be expected to read the text of the Anaphora aloud on a frequent basis intelligibly.
Moreover, I seriously question whether the Anaphora should be READ aloud. If it is to be done aloud at all, surely it should be chanted, not just read. That could lead us into a worth-while discussion of what sort of chanting would be appropriate.
The silent reading is not without its virtues, particularly if there has been thorough catechesis about the content of the Anaphora, what is taking place, and how we should all be prayerfully and profoundly involved. Such a silent prayer has a powerful potential not to be sneezed at (not that I know anybody who makes a point of sneezing during the Anaphora).
Father David is a serious scholar; unfortunately he seems to find it hard to grasp that disagreeing with him on this or that point is not necessarily a rejection of him on a personal level.

fraternally in the Risen Lord,

Incognitus

Father Ed, Christ is Risen!
Forgive me, but what Father David wrote is readily contradicted by opening any copy that I've ever seen, including the copies that I own, of the priest's service book! Methinks he should explain how he came to write something that is so easily shown to be false.

Less importantly, I fail to see how this is an ad hominem attack ... I am not stating that the thesis is wrong because of the person who stated the thesis; rather, I am stating that something given as fact is erroneous, and easily shown to be erroneous; while I did say that that casts doubt on the veracity, in my eyes, of any other statement he makes, I am in no way contending that anything he says should be assumed to be false, or anything can be proved false by virtue of the fact he said it, which is what an ad hominem fallacy would consist in.

If someone makes a statement on this forum that can easily be shown to be false, I expect to be able to call that person to account for that statement. If this is against the rules, then I have no desire to remain a member of this forum.

Photius

Cristos a inviat!

Dear Photius, I would point out that Fr. Alexander Schmemann of blessed memory advocated an audible reading of the Anaphora at least on major feast days. Paul Meyendorff and several in the current Orthodox hierarchy seem to agree with him.

Interestingly, the Eucharistic Prayer (or Roman Canon as it was called then) of the pre-Vatican II Latin mass was not audible. The congregation had missals with an English translation which they could follow, but following was based on actions they observed, not necessarily what they heard. Now there are microphones everywhere so that no barely audible sigh will be missed.

Dear Incognitus, In Truth is He Risen!

I'm quite familiar with the quote; I've used it oft in the last few years in my secular work.

May I ask, have you ever seen a priest's service book, at least one published in a traditional format, that did not give rubrics directing prayers to be said silently?

I have personally never seen that done, and it seems to emanate from a certain intellectual circle that has serious problems with the Byzantine Liturgy, that, in my humble opinion, is more interested in finding fault with the Rite than in practicing it, being members of an Autocephalous Church that insists on performing all services in English even though it has yet, 35 years after being granted Autocephaly, seriously attempted to translate most of the liturgical books into English.
My perception is that they like to study the Rite, but have little desire to practice it in its fullness.

I respectfully disagree. The whole notion of ad libbing the Liturgy, of doing what feels good that day, is contrary to the spirit of tradition; if there be a prescribed way to do something, that should not be changed whimsically.

As for singers dragging the responses, I prefer what I am more accustomed to: silence for a moment.

Certainly, the Copts chant it aloud, which I suspect is what was done by all Christians in antiquity.

While I disagree with him on many things, I can simply agree to disagree. However, stating that no rubrics anywhere ever require silent praying of the Anaphora is like saying the sky is purple with yellow polka dots because it can be readily disproved; however, unlike the latter, many trusting readers don't know that it can be readily disproved.

Photius the Ferocious

Father David's ability to speak on the Liturgy stems from more than just an interest. Though he would be the last one to boast his qualifications, I ask Father David to allow a former student to list his academic qualifications. From Father David's bio:

BA (Philosophy), Duquesne University, Pittsburgh PA (1963); STL, Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome (1967); SEOD, Pontifical Oriental Institute, Rome (1982).

Now lest one may think Father David has spent his years in ivy covered halls, he has in fact served our Church for some 30 years as an administrator or pastor of various parishes.

IMHO, Father David is more than a "serious scholar", he is a serious scholar, pastor, spiritual director, teacher...

Father John, Christ is Risen!

The above simply makes it even more puzzling as to why he would write something as contrary to fact as:

Photius

Dear Reader Photius,

I cannot presume to speak for Father David, but knowing his capabilities, I would venture to guess he was refering to more ancient and/or original versions of the liturgikon, as opposed to any newer (i.e., those of the last few hundred years) versions.

Does "mystiko" equal "silently"?

Could "Οι τα Χερουβείμ μυστικώς εικονίζοντες" then be translated as "We who silently represent the cherubim"?

I am not a linguist, but isn't "sigi" the word for silence in Greek, as in "Σιγησάτω πάσα σάρξ βροτεία"?

Dave

Chtec David, Christ is Risen!
You are correct: "mystiko" and "tajno" both literally translate to "secretly", so the rubrics say "The priest pays secretly"; for context, please note that this is in contrast to "aloud" ("ekphonos"or "bozglasno").

Chtec Fotij