www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Question #1 on New Translation of Liturgy

BB, T!

Interesting. I will have to check them out, although I don't see Fr. Mike often.

Since Johnstown just recently (in the past few years) reissued their pew books, and those still say "...and forever" I wonder how far-reaching this change will be.

Do you know if their reissued Christmas and Theophany books also say "ages of ages"?

Dave

Jeff,

I just want the liturgy my mother calls the �Slavonic High Mass� but in English.

Why do the bishops think that is so wrong?

Kapusta

I would agree with your mother - with the exception that I WOULD like (at least sometimes) to hear the prayers of the Anaphora - the whole point of what we are praying in the Divine Liturgy is right there. And I REALLY want to see Vespers and Matins restored; I've been working on this for eleven years now.

I know there have been omission and changes here in Passaic; I've NEVER seen anything local forbidding some of the things you say the Bishop forbade, and we have a list right there on the cantor stand of the "local changes". But I think you will find that some of these local changes (particularly the "suppressed litanies") will not be found in the "new" liturgy book, if it is approved. That is why I suggested that people be sure their information is not years out of date when they fire a broadside at our hierarchs.

Dear sister Kapusta, I am glad you so desire to see the full liturgy celebrated, and celebrated well. Keep the faith, and you may be surprised to find that even our bishops are trying to keep it too

Your brother in Christ,
Jeff

Out west we have been doing the "high mass" for years. I suspect this is the case for the majority of parishes in the BCC in North America.

Though the "high mass" is still the abridged version. The proposed "new" liturgy is actually very close to what many remember as the "Slavonic high mass". I have tapes of all Slavonic liturgy "low mass" with all those shortcut we dread in these recent posts. At one time this was considered 'normal'. Times change, and so do our expectations of the Divine Liturgy. Look forward two or three generations and I hope to see we are still viable, Liturgical changes or not.

Steve

Of the other four litanies, three USED to be marked optional. (Down in Pittsburgh in the 90's, I remember when these were re-introduced!) All four were in the draft "new" translation as of last year, though two petitions were removed from a litany of thansgiving.

So instead of six omitted litanies, I see two litanies that the hierarchs declined to add BACK into our service books, and two omitted petitions.

Thanks, Jeff, for this information.

Aside from the Seminary, are there parishes which have adopted the prototype of the new Liturgy translation and also include antiphons and texts which are abbreviated or omitted?

Nec

Ugh!

I first heard this used by a few Basilians who were 'chanting' a 'version' of Matins (long story, maybe in another post) before a weekday Divine Liturgy. They used it whenever the book called for a Small Litany. It took me a 2-3 services before I figured out what they were doing.

I still don't get the point. If you want to cut things do, as at a Reader's service - a triple "Lord have mercy". If you want all the regular responses, the celebrant should take the litany. The above, IMHO, just doesn't make sense.

Σώσον, Κύριε, καί διαφύλαξον η�άς από τών Βασιλιάνικων τάξεων!

The way the liturgy is required to be celebrated by Bishop Pataki is nothing like the old �Slavonic High Mass.� I remember it in Slavonic and when we did it in English. Our parish kept it right up until Bishop Pataki prohibited it. Anyone who says that these reforms come close to it or that this is the goal of the bishops is wrong.

After liturgy today ten of us met to discuss writing letters to Rome to complain about this liturgical reform. We don�t know what is better. Should we each write different letters or should we start a petition? We could probably get 100 signatures on a petition.

Kapusta,

I'm puzzled by your deinition of 'high mass' vs 'low mass'. What I see as low mass meant dropping the entrance hymn, epistle, alleluia,litany of supplication, petitions of supplication (after 'It is Truly Proper').
I was in NJ in OCT 2003 and these were NOT omitted. I found the liturgy to be much as I expected.

[q]The way the liturgy is required to be celebrated by Bishop Pataki is nothing like the old �Slavonic High Mass.� I remember it in Slavonic and when we did it in English. Our parish kept it right up until Bishop Pataki prohibited it. Anyone who says that these reforms come close to it or that this is the goal of the bishops is wrong.[/q]

Did Bishop Andrew change things since then? I will be in NJ again in three weeks and will compare notes.

Steve

Steve,

The �Slavonic High Mass� is my mother�s term for the old liturgy. It was pretty much everything in the pew book. Sometimes there was more. Like the litany before the beatitutes and the one before the I believe. I�m not sure how I can make it clearer. I don�t really remember anything else. The only thing less was when the priest skipped the grant it O Lord litany before the Our Father and the litany after May our lips be filled.

Bishop Andrew prohibits the little litany between the Only Begotten Son and the Come let us joyfully sing. We also no longer sing the beatitutes. Ever. The Grant it O Lords are gone. The priest has to take all these prayers out loud so the litanies are skipped to give him time to pray them out loud. It ruins the liturgy and makes it more like a Roman Catholic Mass. But I guess that is what Bishop Pataki wants. People say he wants us to be different from the Orthodox. Look what he did to holy week. It was horrible. If they keep it like this we are not going next year. Why can�t they just leave everything the way it was?

Kapusta

Chrystos Voskres. I am a new contributor, Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Toronto. I have two observations. With regards to the Liturrgy in English, I would like to see all the Byzantine Catholic jurisdictions get together and agree on a common text. The only text we currently share is of the Lord's Prayer. I think a joint commission of at least the BCC, the Melkites and the Ukrainians is absolutely necesssary for some sense to come out of all of this. Our latest English text was approved by Rome in 1987. Many still use the pre-1987 text produced but the Toronto Eparchy, while Parma Ukrainian came up with its own English text in 1995 approved by Patriarch Myroslav Lubachivsky despite the official text. In Torotno, we overwhelmingly still use Ukrainian, so our dispute is between the text of Patriarch Josyf Slipyj (1968) and the 1987 Synodal Revision. The major difference between the two is "na viky vikiv" in the older text versus "na viky vichni" in the newer. Interestingly, the Kiev Patrairchate of the Ukr. Orthodox Church has adopted "na viky vikiv" and much of Slipyj's text. Confusing? Thank God He has a sense of humour to deal with all of us. Z Bohom. Deacon Bohdan

Christ is risen!

Greetings to all and to you Kapusta. I do understand your point of view whole-heartedly, but I must confess that the recited "silent prayers" are so very beautiful, and, to me, are essential to fully developing the Divine Liturgy. These prayers <to me> are the essence of our core beliefs and foundation of our existence as a faith community. As our priest prays these words of holy faith out loud, I listen to each and every word, absorb it, digest it, and feel the AWE overcome me as I become one with his most sublime prayers. Call me out to lunch if you wish (and you are certainly justified after what I just wrote), but I (and my wife) truly love to hear each and every prayer uttered by the congregation and our Priest.

In Christ,

Michael

OK we put together a letter of complaint. Our priest said he would get in trouble if we solicited signatures for a petition after Sunday liturgy and suggested we write letters instead. WE�re going to have copies ready to pass out on Sunday so people can use them to write their own letters. Please pray that we can save our church. We really don�t want to leave but will have no choice if they totally destroy the liturgy.

Here are the addresses. Everyone should write to save our church.

Congregation for Divine Worship
Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum
Palazzo delle Congregazioni
00193 Roma
Piazza Pio XII, 10 ITALY

Congregation for the Oriental Churches
Congregatio pro Ecclesiis Orientalibus
Palazzo del Bramante
00193 Roma
Via della Conciliazione, 34 ITALY

Most Reverend Gabriel Montalvo Higuera
Vatican Apostolic Nuncio
3339 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W
Washington, DC 20008

I certainly would not deny any ones right to free speech, someting that is highly valued in our country and guaranteed by our Constitution, but before any one pens a letter to the above named officials has anyone considered to write a letter to his or her respective Eparch and Metropolitan about these matters? These men are our Pastors and rightful Church leaders and should be given the opportunity to answer any questions one may have about the Liturgy.

Kapusta,
Excuse my total ignorance, but I don't exactly understand what information will be going into the letters.
What do you mean by 'saving our church'?
Is there a mass exodus going on there because of changes to the Liturgy? How many families have you actually lost?
How many actual changes to the Liturgy have there been? Are they major changes? Is the Creed gone? Consecration? Communion?
Is your pastor supporting your letter writing campaign by writing a letter himself?
What specifically are you asking the Nuncio, etc. to do? What is your expected outcome?
Before writing a letter and signing my name to it I would want to be sure I had hard evidence of abuse.
Also,I personally would leave out statements such as 'the Liturgy is horrible' however thats just me.

Sam